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http://cedar-and-willow.blogspot.com/

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http://bizarrezoology.blogspot.com/
Showing posts with label Tim Dinsdale. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Tim Dinsdale. Show all posts

Monday, 14 July 2014

Some More Plesiosaur Lake Monster Info From Scott Mardis



Scott Mardis compares Lake Champlain and Loch Ness photographs with Plesiosaur skeletons above, and a view of a photograph of the head with the skull of a Plesiosaur at the British Museum.


 
Scott Mardis included this reconstruction of a type of Plesiosaur with a "back fin"-this would not ordinarily show up in fossils and a lower fleshy structure like this could have been more of a hump structure and serve the same purpose. Scott Mardis also suggested to me that there could be a natural tendency to develop two medial back humps above the front and rear limb girdles: the same possibility had occurred to me independently several years earlier, and others had also independently remarked upon it. The basic structures would be made up of skin over connective tissue, but you could also include a fatty layer in that, some kinds of sea creatures store fat in or near the fins.
 
 
Scott Mardis' overlay of a Champ sighting over a Plesiosaur skeleton and showing the known range of motion in the neck in that genus. I do not think the difference in the flexibility as stated by the witness was that severely different, and the main new feature to be present and not shown are the humps on the back. I prefer Heuvelman's description of the hump in Longnecks: "One big medial hump looking like two otr three smaller humps together", with underlying layers of fat underneath it, and the humps can change shape owing to turbulence waves in the wayter and from the action of muscular layers in it (Oudemans even suggested this last statement)
 
Below is a summary of sightings from Loch Morar, and the sightings are typically much like the composite profile that we get from the Longnecked reports at Loch Ness
 (there is also a smaller residual of smaller shortnecked creatures in both locations)
 

 
 
Tim Dinsdale with his model he made illustrating his analysis of the "Monster" reports at Loch Ness. He had two different basic models, one with the two humps illustrated in his drawing in the book, and the three-humped version he shows in this model. He also said that it really did not matter since he thought the humps could change shape. Basically we are all saying the same thing on that point. Dinsdale thought the humps were showing subcutaneous air sacs but after some deliberation I opted for Heuvelmans' explanation as being safer.
 

Tim Dinsdale remarked that the body configuration of the creature in this sighting (seen partly on shore) was close to his composite model but made independently before his model was publicized. The drawing also "Predicted" the rhomboid fins that were not documented as belonging to the Loch Ness Monster until much later on.

 
Hawkesbury River Monster from Australia, frequently compared to Dinsdale's version of Nessie and in fact often called just "Nessie. The worldwide overall similarity of the reported creatures is actually quite close and the same features and proportions keep showing up.

Wednesday, 12 March 2014

Loch Ness Underwater Photos from Scott Mardis, additional




The Rines "Two Bodies" photo, which correspond to a sonar trace showing the presence of two large features (about 30 feet long) in the scanned field simultaneously. The longer projection or flipper is estimated as being 6 to 8 feet long and corresponds to the separate "Flipper" photos (1975)

In 1975, vertebrate paleontologist L.B. Halstead pointed out that the rhomboidal flippers seen in the Rines Loch Ness underwater photos from 1972 did not match the hydrofoil shape of then-current reconstructions of plesiosaur flipper shapes, based on skin outlines preserved around some plesiosaur flipper specimens (Hydrodrion brachypterygius and Seelyosaurus guillelmi-imperatoris). A May 2013 Master’s thesis by vertebrate paleontologist Mark Cruz DeBlois may question that assertion. Using hydrodynamic principles in combination with advanced mathematical formulas, DeBlois has produced a predicted plesiosaur flipper shape for the front flippers of the plesiosaur Cryptocleidus eurymerus that is much closer to the rhomboidal shape of the Rines flippers, with a much larger trailing edge of flesh that extends beyond the flipper bones (see upper left, blue and red outlines). Read it for yourself athttp://mds.marshall.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1502&context=etd

 
 Traditional reconstructions of plesiosaur flipper morphology and plesiosaur flipper skin impressions: (clockwise from top left) the front and rear flippers of Hydrodrion brachypterygius, the right rear flipper of the "Collard plesiosaur" from the UK, a typical model of the traditional proposed plesiosaur flipper morphology and sketches of the skin impressions surrounding the flippers of the plesiosaurs Seelyosaurus guillelmi-imperatoris and Hydrodrion brachypterygius.



DeBlois' hypothesized front flipper of Hydrodrion brachypterygius overlayed on the second Rines "flipper" image.

In 1975 the biggest breakthrough for Dr. Rines and his team came when a set of close-up underwater photographs were taken which when released in December of that year caused a worldwide sensation. The pictures which show the head and body of one of the creatures in remarkable detail, were taken with the Edgerton strobe camera during the expedition the previous June.For several months the pictures were examined in secret in zoological centres in Britain, America, Canada and Europe. It was planned to release them in early December at a scientific symposium in Edinburgh to be attended by zoologists from all over the world under the chairmanship of the famous British naturalist and painter Sir Peter Scott. News of the pictures leaked out at the end of November, before the study of them was complete and caused such excitement that the sponsors of the symposium, who included the prestigious Royal Society, felt it would be impossible to conduct a proper scientific discussion in such an atmosphere. Consequently the symposium, at which the whole Loch Ness controversy would have been debated at length and hopefully resolved, had to be cancelled. In its place a meeting was held in the Grand Committee Room at the Houses of Parliament at the instigation of David James, the MP who had led the Investigation Bureau. Before a large audience of members of both houses of Government, scientists and journalists, the Academy team presented the results of their research, including the new underwater photographs, together with supporting statements from eminent zoologists who had been examining the material. Dr. George Zug, the Curator of Reptiles and Amphibians at the renowned Smithsonian Institution in Washington said in his personal statement : "I believe these data indicate the presence of large animals in Loch Ness, but are insufficient to indentify them ".

The nearly universal reaction is that the photographs show something which looks very much like a long-necked Plesiosaur. The photo sequence is shown here in two alternate orientations.







Monday, 3 March 2014

Sea Giraffes Appendix

We had discussed the matter on the blog before at
But Jay Cooney and I had been discussing the matter again more extensively and these are some of my illustrations I had sent to him then. They had been waiting here unpublished until now.

Giraffe like "Caddy" (Off the West Coast of NA) compared to Corinthian SS (Off East Coast of NA)
Both of these sightings compared against Oudemans' composite model


Newspaper drawing of Corinthian SS (Inaccurate) compared to Oudemans SS composite reconstruction
Below, my statistical averages drawn from thousands of Longneck reports worldwide as matched against Hutchinson's SS, Bay of Meil in the Orkneys, 1910



Plesiosaur neck inserted for purposes of comparison
(Plesiosaur skeleton shown at bottom)

Hutchinson's SS off Orkneys (Scotland) is as high as the whole giraffe, not just the neck. That makes the neck approximately twice as long as the giraffe's neck and probably more. Below, Hutchinson's diagram of how he figured the height of the sea serpent "Periscope" by judging it against the mast of their boat and triangulating. Mr Hutchinson had submitted his report directly to Tim Dinsdale in 1960.


Below, Corinthian, Meil Bay, and my composite "Merhorses" (Mine in the brown colouration phase, both redbrown and greenish or olive brown both being regularly noted in such sightings with the reddish brown seen much more commonly. The giraffe-like mottled effect is one infrequent variation on the brownish one) Please note that in opposition to Heuvelmans' "Merhorse" description, the mane is stiff and stands up like a "fin"and the eyes are not large. The "Horns" appear to me to be the same material as the "Fins"




 
 
Neck Flexibilty possible in the long-necked Plesiosaur Muraenosaurus,
 from an illustration supplied by Scott Mardis
 
In the case of these sightings showing the whole length of the neck above the surface, the body can be assumed to be almost vertical below the surface.
 
 

Sunday, 25 August 2013

ShukerNature Loch Ness Monster sighting from Tim Dinsdale

http://www.karlshuker.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/what-may-be-hitherto-undocumented.html

Karl Shuker recently ran a notice about a sketch a witness had given Tim Dinsdale and which Dinsdale subsequently gave to Shuker. Since this was in 1986, the sighting was presumably recent from perhaps the earlier 1980s. Karl Shuker was putting the information out in hopes of receiving more details about the sighting and I thought it might help if I shared the sketches and the story here.

LNM sighting given to Dr Karl Shuker by Tim Dinsdale on 25 July 1987


 The sheet given to me on 25 July 1987 by Tim Dinsdale containing two sketches by a Nessie eyewitness

The eyewitness observed a typical 'periscope' shape projecting up through the water surface, yielding an outline reminiscent of the object in the controversial Surgeon's Photo. He/she also saw a very long hump visible above the water surface, approximately 25-30 ft in length and approximately 1.5 ft high, with what looked like distinct backward-pointing serrations running along the posterior portion of its upper surface.

If anyone has any further knowledge concerning this Nessie sighting, I'd be delighted to receive details here on ShukerNature

 It just so happens that only the day before yesterday, I posted some extractions of statistics on the Loch Ness Monster in reply to prodding by "Joe Richardson" (I have reason to suspect that is a pseudonym). These were posted in the comments section of "What is Nessie Really?"
 
Owing to a glitch in the comments section at blogger, I had to make repeated attempts before my comments in reply were even published, and they would only go out in small sections, such that it took four postings to get my entire reply up. Having the reply function for comments at the end of my blogs malfunction is an unfortunately common occurance here on Blogger.
  1. Do a majority of the sightings at loch ness occur at close range?

  2. In that Loch Ness is an inland area where most distances come with more close range reference points to judge distance by, as opposed to sightings at sea which are unbounded and without such reference points, it only stands to reason.
  3. The majority of all sightings are well nearer the shoreline than toward the middle of the loch. The majority of sightings occur in areas where the depth of the water is from 50-300 feet, hence more to the edges of the loch instead of in the deeper waters (in the middle). That's something like 70% of the sightings and very close to shore, when the information can be checked
  4. The majority of sightings occur near the concentrations of human occupation, at the settlement areas, and fairly close to the shore. These are also areas where rivers go into the loch and fishes can be expected to be travelling in and out the river mouths. Slightly over half the sightings are in the bay areas. Nearly all sightings are of a hump or back under 30 feet long, and just about a third say the length of an overturned boat between 10-20 feet (usually 15). Over half of the sightings also say this back or hump rose only about a foot out of the water. The Periscope sightings of the head and neck are most frequently 3-5 feet out of the water (just over 50% of sightings where an estimation was made) and less frequent the larger sizes you go up. Most of these estimates are pretty definite and consistent and the estimates seem to be reliable under ordinary circumstances.
  5. In all of these instances the percentages of cases shown are for the sample where the statistics can be extracted, hence sightings of objects like upturned boats are given a certain percentage of the sightings when an object appears above the surface at all, and so on down the line.
 
So it would seem that going by the statistics, the body or hump in this sighting was just over the average size at 25-30 feet long (probably the next category up from the most common one) while the head and neck "Periscope" is very likely to be just about in the most common category (the head and neck are 1/5 the length of the larger hump to scale and hence more than likely 5-6 feet tall.) This would do well to compare to the recent 'More Comparisons of Long necked Sea Serpent Models' blog entry, and the Periscope would be ahead of the hump for a fair length od submerged neck. This would be a very good sighting to have established and verified because it is basically very exemplary but a little bit larger than the average sizes estimated. For that reason I would urge anybody that recognizes this report to give the specifics to myself or to Karl Shuker's blog: and if I get anything important here I shall cheerfully notify him about it as well.

Monday, 15 July 2013

Ivan Sanderson's Copy of the Report on Tim Dinsdale's Loch Ness Monster Film

Peeking at Ivan's SITU files.
http://thebiggeststudy.blogspot.com/2011/04/peeking-at-ivans-situ-files.html

From The Biggest Study site, arranged and presented by "The Professor":
This will just be a brief note. I think that when I'm "peeking" at Ivan Sanderson's files, I'll use a picture of him "peeking" at the Minnesota Iceman. Today's peek will be at a piece of evidence for the Loch Ness monster. I'm not going to do any analyzing, so it's up to you.

What we're looking at will be the study of the Dinsdale film. [Tim Dinsdale is in the picture above]. I have several very good cryptozoologically-inclined friends [they themselves are not crypto-beasts as far as I know, but suspicious characters nonetheless], who have written some of the best works in the field [George Eberhart, Jerry Clark, and Henry Bauer; I've had a long and collegial correspondence with Gary Mangiacopra as well.] All these guys are interested in Loch Ness, but perhaps no one more than Henry. I've asked him why he thinks that the Monster is real. This is a particularly intriguing question to me since Henry Bauer is one of the most intelligent men, and hardest "sells", that I know.

Henry gave me three reasons at the time. One was the plethora of credible witness testimonies from people he had talked to himself. Another was the occasional mysterious sonar reading. But the big deal for him seemed to be the "Dinsdale Film". This consisted of around 1500 frames of 16mm film shot by Dinsdale in 1960. It seems to show some object making a wake in the loch, but what else can one say?? To try to get a bit "else to say", Dinsdale talked the UK's Joint Air Reconnaissance Intelligence Center into analyzing it. Of course he gave them the original to work with. Much has been claimed for the results of the JARIC which followed. Some folks have seen them as not compelling; most folks see them as "proving" that some large animate object was swimming in the Loch that day.

Shuffling through Ivan's SITU file on Loch Ness, I turned a page and there was what seemed to be an original copy of the JARIC report. How Ivan got an original who knows?? Note, even, that it says "copy 1 of 2" !! Well, knowing that some of you are "romantic explorers" and enjoy seeing the original stuff, I felt it my duty [and pleasure] to scan it and let you look for yourselves. The three-page "thing-itself" follows.




Please read into the report what you see, of course; I am hardly an expert on this. I DO know that it has always been hard for me to "see" much in the documentaries which replay Dinsdale's film. Apparently, it was a bit hard even for the JARIC to do so. But, as you read, they DID see something.

What the report SAYS that their analysis was able to see was a "solid, black, approximately triangular shape". This of course doesn't mean that the "swimming" object WAS a "Black Triangle" but the thought does send one reeling for a moment ... but I don't want to get Henry mad and try to turn Nessie into a UFO, so I'm going with a solid swimming thing that just happened to present a sort-of triangular aspect as it swum away. The speed of this "thing", as Sanderson would have labelled it, was good as a small motorized boat, and the "above water size" large enough to cause a puzzle. But I'm out of my depth [pun sort-of intended] and you should just think it through as you will. My only goal here was to give you another rare chance to see the stuff "behind the stories" for a change.

A swimming Black Triangular USO?? Call Carl Feindt!!! Just joking Henry --- don't throw me off your Xmas card list.

[I have taken the liberty of re-posting the report pages below at a larger, readable size. It definitely reads as if it means to EXCLUDE the possibility that what is being filmed is a boat and "Animate Object" is understood to mean "alive." My conclusion is that the "Living animate object" shown in the Dinsdale film is a Long-necked Sea-serpent of probably good average size, and that this individual Long-necked Sea serpent was living in the Loch at least as of 1960. It is possible that this same individual animal was living in the Loch in the 1930s, and  that same individual animal does NOT have to still be living in the Loch NOW for this to be true.  - Best Wishes, DD.]




Sunday, 30 June 2013

Soay Beast

http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-soay-sea-monster.html

Today the CFZ blog ran a couple of illustrations on the Soay beast, evidently featured in Glen Vaudrey's new book, Since we have discussed the matter here before I thought I'd run the illustrations here also


Fantastic version as run in newspapers




Original Witness' sketches
Off the Isle of Soay in 1959, two Scotsmen were to see a creature in the sea that they had never encountered before. Tex Geddes and James Gavin were fishing for mackerel together in fine weather, and had already seen killer whales and basking sharks when Gavin noticed another black shape in the water some distance away.

Geddes described the encounter:

"When the object appeared to be steaming towards us, we both stood up for a better view. I can't remember exactly how close it was when I heard the breathing, but I could certainly hear it before I could definitely have said that the object was alive. It was not making much speed, maybe 3 or 4 knots. I am afraid we both started in amazement as the object came towards us, for this beast steaming slowly in our direction was like some hellish monster of prehistoric times.

The head was definitely reptilian, about 2 1/2 feet high with large protruding eyes. There were no visible nasal organs but a large red gash of a mouth which seemed to cut the head in half and which appeared to have distinct lips. There was at least 2ft of clear water behind the neck. I would say we saw 8-10ft of back on the water line.

The head appeared rather blunt and darker than the rest of the body which seemed to be scaly and the top of its back was surmounted by an immense sawtoothed ridge. It seemed to breathe through its mouth , which opened and shut with great regularity, and once when it turned towards us I could see into its cavernous red maw. I saw no teeth."

 
To  these two men - neither of whom was a stranger to the seas or their wildlife - the beast was beyond their knowledge. Bernard Heuvelmans makes this sighting out to be one of the defining examples of his category Father of All The Turtles but later he suggests it could have been a small Merhorse (Because of the spiny crest on the back) Tim Dinsdale remarked that several of the described features also turned up in Loch Ness Monster reports, including the wide mouth regularly opening and closing with a loud breathing noise and showing a distinctly red interior.


See Also:  http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com/2012/11/scott-mardis-on-champplesiosaur-3.html

Sunday, 27 January 2013

More Plesiosaur Comparisons with Loch Ness Photos by Scott Mardis


Some more of Scott Mardis' comparisons with two different photos of the Loch Ness Monster: the first photo of the "Monster" by Hugh Gray in 1933 and the photo by Peter O'Connor in 1960. While I do not insist on the former, I think the latter is likely a photo of a living Plesiosaur: Peter Costello mentions Burton's dismissal of this photo and avers that Burton's explanation is also not to be trusted because of his extreme bias. Examination of the O'Connor photo resulted in a proposed scientific name, Nessiesaurus o'connori, which as Roy Mackal remarks could be held to have priority over Nessiteras rhombopteryx by priority (p. 220 footnote). The O'Connor photo is reversed above.

Dinsdale, Tim, Loch Ness Monster,1961, Routledge and Kegan Paul, pp 152-158, Plates 5 and 10
Costello, Peter, In Search of Lake Monsters, 1974, Coward McCann & Geoghegan, Both photos reproduced in the plates, Hugh Gray in text p 38 , Peter O'Connor in text, pp 87-88
Mackal, Roy P, The Monsters of Loch Ness, 1976, Swallow Books,Gray photo is "P1", pp 94-96 and O'Connor photo is "P9", pp 104-106. It should be mentioned that Burton had no firm connection  between  what he found and O'Connor's photo other than a local's say-so: the "Evidence" was all too convenient to be found and could have been planted deliberately. Mackal says his own impression is ambivalent without examining the negative which indicates he sets no especial store by Burton's allegations either.

Saturday, 14 April 2012

What Is Nessie REALLY?


In his preliminary analysis of the reports of the Loch Ness Monster done as a prelude to his first trip to Loch Ness, Tim Dinsdale came up with a number of statistical abstractions. His results in the category of hump sightings for example, break down into rough thirds (at a diminishing quantity per each third) for two humps, one hump or three humps (roughly half each out of that third) and then for multiple humps up to as many as a dozen in a row. Dinsdale's drepiction of the different categories of humps is illustrated in his figure 2 reprinted above. Mackal's 1976 analysis for a larger number of sightings in the same location also give about the same statistics, but Mackal discounts all reports of humps consisting of more than six in number as being due to standing waves. This is the first major break in the analysis of reports. Shortly before this, Heuvelmans' In the Wake of the Sea-Serpents had come out, and it mentions in the text that the "String of buoys" categories Many-humped and Super-otter were based on mistaken observations counting the wake as the body of the creature, and he also mentions that explanation as a confusion in the Longnecked category.

Indeed Roy Mackal printed the second illustration following in his book on the Loch Ness Monster on the famous sighting he had previously documented in his earlier book on the Great Sea Serpent. The game should have been up at that point because it showed once and for all that what people were describing as a long string of humps was actually an illusion caused by the waves forming in the wake of an object moving in the water. Experiments would also show that you get much the same effect from any number of different causes so long as you basically have the same sort of a wake.
Because of this you have string of buoys wakes being left by fishes and whales of various sizes and also by boats. and the row of hump-ripples can be as small as a few feet long or seemingly stretch for miles. Adding the number of sightings from Dinsdale that are merely described as wakes to the assorted hump sightings makes the category the decided majority of Loch Ness Monster cases.

The conclusion to be drawn was clear. NONE of the string-of buoys reports were to be trusted and even the more basic reports of one to three humps would have to be scrutinized before they would be fit to call reliable evidence. The entire string of buoys categories of Heuvelmans' sea serpents would have to be dropped. At the same time, one of the demonstrable causes of the string of buoys wake effect was the Longnecked sea serpent, as in the fifth drawing down from the top in Dinsdale's fig 2. In which case the determininative characteristic for the creature was the long neck and not the humps




This early set of sightings at Loch Ness emphasizes the reports that are actually caused by wave actione could still have been causing that wave action.

Determining sightings of the type statistically also put several of the sightings featuring a small head and large body together, with or without also mentioning the long neck as well. These reports were statistically consistent world-wide as shown by different comparable analyses done for each location separately. However the string-of-buoys reports were also alarmingly consistent statistically and they also turned out to be world-wide in distribution. The Plesiosaur-shaped pattern did prove to be consistent and an analysis of only the Longnecked category reports of Heuvelmans also resulted in much the same statistics. But it began to become apparent that worldwide and in any large number of reports, the reports specifying the long neck observations were in the minority. Several locations (including Lake Okanogon) had very few or no verifiable reports of long necked "Periscopes" over a yard or two long, and it also became obvious that even at Loch Ness they were not a consistent feature of reports at all times. At Loch Ness, long periods could go by when no observations of "Periscopes" would be made at all and when they did occur, the observations tended to come in bundles together.

Nessie from Scotland and Nahelito from Argentina. In both cases the heads of the creatures have been said to be pieces of wood, but this comparison DOES go to show that the reports of the type are remarkably similar worldwide

Taking the raw statistics alone it seems that in the long run and worldwide the consistent pattern IS the string-of-buoys series of reports and that category should be regarded as the background noise that researchers should be aware contaminates all collections of data we have on record. As such it must be emphasized that what most people have meant historically by the terms "Sea-serpent", "Ogopogo", "Nessie", "Champ" and so on has been the standing wave phenomenon, ie, the background noise reports and not the legitimate "Creature" reports at all.
On the other hand, many experts have been making estimations about "The Creature" that was supposed to be at the bottom of all of these reports. In the examples below, each of the experts had made a SeaSerpent model that was supposed to have included a population (or only stray individuals) that wandered  into Loch Ness.
These reconstructions are by Oudemans, Sanderson and Dinsdale in chronological order from top to bottom. They are all basically rather similar except for the ever-shrinking length of the body and the tail. That great length was categorically stated to account for the lengthy reported trains of humps, the effects of the waves in the wake. That was the mistaken effect of taking all of the reports together and NOT excerpting the background noise out of the main body of reports.

Below is Dinsdale's reconstruction for the Loch Ness Monster (leaving the humps off) and below that are my own comparable Longnecker reconstructions. An excerpt from Gould's book explaining his reconstruction is below, and it siffers from Dinsdale's mainly in having a longer tail (Gould directly states this is to account for some of the "String of buoys" reports) And at the bottom there is one of the reports from Gould allegedly showing the shape of the humps changing on the creature's back. This may be due to the type of flexible (boneless) fatty hump on the back that Bernard Heuvelmans describes in his discussion on the LongNecked Sea-Serpent.








Currently there just might be some new  Longnecker sightings at Loch Ness but we seem to be coming out of a long dry spell for sightings. For many years the most common "Nessie" sightings seem to have been mistaken observations of wakes and other objects once again.