It would seem to me that people who had been saying "there are no bears in Africa to account for the Nandi Bear (Chemosit or 'Boogeyman' )" have just been wrong all along to say that. The simplest hypothesis is that the Nandi bear really is a bear, and a not especially unusual bear, either.

FRONTIERS OF ZOOLOGY
Dale A. Drinnon has been a researcher in the field of Cryptozoology for the past 30+ years and has corresponded with Bernard Heuvelmans and Ivan T. Sanderson. He has a degree in Anthropology from Indiana University and is a freelance artist and writer. Motto: "I would rather be right and entirely alone than wrong in the company with all the rest of the world"--Ambroise Pare', "the father of modern surgery", in his refutation of fake unicorn horns.
Plug
Member of The Crypto Crew:
http://www.thecryptocrew.com/
Please Also Visit our Sister Blog, Frontiers of Anthropology:
http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com/
And the new group for trying out fictional projects (Includes Cryptofiction Projects):
http://cedar-and-willow.blogspot.com/
And Kyle Germann's Blog
http://www.demonhunterscompendium.blogspot.com/
And Jay's Blog, Bizarre Zoology
http://bizarrezoology.blogspot.com/
http://www.thecryptocrew.com/
Please Also Visit our Sister Blog, Frontiers of Anthropology:
http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com/
And the new group for trying out fictional projects (Includes Cryptofiction Projects):
http://cedar-and-willow.blogspot.com/
And Kyle Germann's Blog
http://www.demonhunterscompendium.blogspot.com/
And Jay's Blog, Bizarre Zoology
http://bizarrezoology.blogspot.com/
Showing posts with label Nandi Bear. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Nandi Bear. Show all posts
Sunday, 30 December 2012
Atlas Bear > Nandi Bear Again
One of my facebook friends posted this image of what looks very much like a bear engraved into a rock face in the middle of the Sahara and estimated to be 6000 years old:
This was labelled with a name approximately meaning "Boogieman" but to me it looks like an extremely good portrait of a Eurasian brown bear with a small hump on the shoulders, pom-pom ears, dished face, "Piglike" snout and even a sort of a grin on his face. He seems to be carrying off a goat or ram slung over his shoulder. From Roman-age records we also know that the Ethiopian bear known to be flourishing then was of much the same appearance and nature. When the Arabs began setting up trading posts in East Africa (at about the same time as the Viking Age in the North Atlantic), they made mentions of what they called a Duba according to Heuvelmans, the usual word meaning "Bear", and apparently all along the Zanj or Eastern coast of Africa down to Zanzibar.
It would seem to me that people who had been saying "there are no bears in Africa to account for the Nandi Bear (Chemosit or 'Boogeyman' )" have just been wrong all along to say that. The simplest hypothesis is that the Nandi bear really is a bear, and a not especially unusual bear, either.
It would seem to me that people who had been saying "there are no bears in Africa to account for the Nandi Bear (Chemosit or 'Boogeyman' )" have just been wrong all along to say that. The simplest hypothesis is that the Nandi bear really is a bear, and a not especially unusual bear, either.
Labels:
Atlas Bear,
Chemosit,
Duba,
Ethiopian Bear,
Nandi Bear,
Saharan Rock Art
Wednesday, 5 December 2012
Late Survival Theorem, Regarding Chalicotherium
Late Survival Theorem, Regarding Chalicotherium
From A Comfy Chair, We I.D. Un-cuddly “Nandi Bear”?
Plus, a Terrace of Lions? Dude You’re not even Tryin’
Enigma’s & Mysteries Due to Skewed View of History
The link to this was just posted at the bottom of the earlier blog posting on the Nandi Bear
[ http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com/2011/05/is-nandi-bear-actually-bear.html ]
Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2012

Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kinds, and cattle after their kinds, and every thing that creeps upon the earth after its kind:
and God saw that it was good.”
Can a Leopard Change Its Paradigm?
As a Christian my interests are not strictly limited to debates about the meaning of scripture, issues concerning salvation or debates concerning the existence of God. Those are all important to be sure but throughout history science has been driven by human curiosity about and discoveries concerning the world and the universe that God has made.
One of the interests I have is in something I like to call crypto-zoo-archaeology. Clues to the true history of our planet can be discovered by examining the art and artifacts of past civilizations. The truth is; studying and writing about what I and many others have found in these artifacts is another way of addressing; the meaning of scripture, issues concerning salvation and debates concerning the existence of God.
![]() |
[Or, this could be a Horned Toad-DD] |
In this pursuit I have found that those who accept the literal creation account of Genesis have an incredible advantage in this arena. One can look at the artifacts of ancient history through at least two filters; 1)that all living creatures are descended from a single living cell and have evolved through some process (essentially linear and sequential) into the higher order living species that we see today, or 2)the Genesis account of creation which would mean that all living creatures including man have all lived together simultaneously through all history in essentially their current forms.
No matter which filter one uses much of ancient history will still be a puzzle. But using the wrong filter certainly leads to a copious number of; inconsistencies, anomalies, contradictions, unknowns, mysteries and a need to fill in missing information with speculations and assertions which are not data or evidence.
Personally, I have tested the Genesis account and found that what I see and what I expect to find in the historical and archaeological record better fit that filter.
Once one of the two above named paradigms are accepted however it is very difficult to see or even to consider evidence that conflicts with the paradigm. This is true whether you believe in evolution or in Creation ex Nihilo by God. This relative inability to see or except or even to evaluate evidence that might appear to conflict with your adopted paradigm afflicts even those among who are quite certain that we are actually open-minded and objective.
This doesn’t negate the fact that one of the referenced paradigms-is actually true-and that the selection of one or the other filter for your own life doesn’t have consequences.
When news outlets announced that James Cameron and others had allegedly found “the Jesus Tomb” it did not cause any consternation among Christians who paid zero attention to the story. We waited for secular archaeologists to refute it-which they have. When news conferences, books and television series were coordinated around the announcement of an alleged human ancestor—which was going to change everything exploded on the scene-“Ida”, I did not do a spit-take.
By the end of that year “Ida” was not even on lists for the top ten science stories of that year. “she/it had been debunked. I have never seen “evidence for evolution”. I’ve never seen a transitional fossil.
I accept that evolutionists have not seen evidence for the theory of creation either. However, shouldn’t just a single ancient artifact indicating that humans and dinosaurs lived together falsify the notion that we missed each other by 65 million years? In the 1920’s the World’ foremost archaeologist discovered human and dinosaur bones together in Mongolia and he found that they had fashioned jewelry by boring the shells and making ornaments of dinosaur eggs. (See our article: Dinosaur and Human Interactions in Our Times; the New York Times, LA Times, Chicago Sun Times ect)
Do I need to tell you that you need to use “fresh” un-fossilized dinosaur eggs for this purpose? That archaeologist, Roy Chapman Andrews went on to become the director of the American Museum of Natural History-so how come so many evolutionists ask where there has ever been such evidence (of co-existence) ever in the world?
Let’s test my paradigm theory. Note the middle, right photograph compilation; the one with the three views of an archaeological object. Once you read the museum’s description of the object, or perhaps prior thereto your filter goes into action.
“Colima Horned Toad. Protoclassic, ca. 100 B.C. to A.D. 250. Height: 5.3 in. (13.5 cm.); Length: 10.5 in. (26.7 cm.). Price: $2,250Our article can be found Here.
There are four rows of spiked protrusions in high relief along the length of the body, and one row across the head, thirty in all. Coffee bean eyes, recessed nostrils, open mouth, spout as tail, and short legs create a reptile that seems pleased with his surroundings. Provenance: From a Riverside County, California.”
Now, if you are a creationist, willing to believe that dinosaurs and man co-existed, you may see that the photo comparison with an armored dinosaur is very apt. If however, you are using the evolution filter it will be a toad. There is no way that it could be a dinosaur because you believe that they missed each other by 65 million years.
This is then, a toad, a fake or etc. In the same way, of course, I have trouble accepting this as a toad because I see the dinosaur explanation as a better fit-however, I do believe that the toad explanation is a possibility.

Just above, left is another very interesting ancient artifact. This artifact is described by the curator as a “lion”. I picked this one out because I want to get into the heart of this post and talk about another group of famous lions. Most people would be perfectly willing to see this depiction as a “lion”.
“Early Islamic glass lion (zoomorphic balsamarium). 7th-9th century AD”.Certainly no one would object to “mythological”, or “unknown animal” or even; “stylized lion figure”. One must make a decision and call it something. However, if you accept the evolutionary filter it is possible that a whole group of potential candidates can’t even be considered. What if the true depiction here is of some type of crested dinosaur? In the photo we’ve compared it to Olorotitan, a European, crested hadrosaur (top, right of photo) and to Amargasaurus, a crested sauropod. Fossils of the specific species have been found in Argentina.
My point is that creationists can consider the entire creation when examining an artifact but those using the other filter cannot—and maintain their paradigm-al purity. They must describe every artifact in terms of the ruling evolutionary paradigm or face the penalties that the scientific/academic/media culture will mete out. Can you imagine someone from Academia describing this as either a badly composed lion or possibly a sauropod like Amargasaurus?
So now let’s talk about some other depictions labeled “lions” by the archaeological establishment.
The Terrace of Lions at Delos

The terrace consisted of a row of nine to twelve marble carved lions that faced eastward towards the Sacred Lake of Delos along the Sacred Way from Skardana Bay to the temples. The lions, with their mouths open as if roaring or snarling, were both meant to guard the sanctuaries and to inspire a feeling of divine fear among the worshippers. The way in which they were positioned is similar to the way sphinxes were set up along avenues in ancient Egypt.
Today, only five of the original lions remain with remnants of three others and the headless body of another has been transported and put over the main gate of a Venetian arsenal.” Biers, William R. The Archaeology of Greece. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1996. Whitley, James. The Archaeology of Ancient Greece. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2001.
“The island of Delos near Mykonos, near the centre of the Cyclades archipelago, is one of the most important mythological, historical and archaeological sites in Greece. The excavations in the island are among the most extensive in the Mediterranean; ongoing work takes place under the direction of the French School at Athens and many of the artifacts found are on display at the Archaeological Museum of Delos and the National Archaeological Museum of Athens.”
Photo:Naxian Lions held at the Museum at Delos are less damaged.

Could they depict some other animal? Are they mythological?
Prior to trying to answer that, we switch to a more recent crypto-zoological mystery; the Nandi Bear of Kenya for reasons which I hope to make clear.
The Nandi Bear and Chalicotherium

Frank W. Lane wrote, “What the Abominable Snowman is to Asia, or the great Sea Serpent is to the oceans, the Nandi Bear is to Africa. It is one of the most notorious of those legendary beasts which have, so far, eluded capture and the collector’s rifle.
…Descriptions of the Nandi Bear are of a ferocious, powerfully built carnivore with high front shoulders (over four feet tall) and a sloping back; somewhat similar to a hyena. Some have speculated that Nandi Bears are in fact a misidentified hyena or a surviving Ice Age giant hyena: Karl Shuker states that a surviving short-faced hyena Pachycrocuta brevirostris,extinct ca. 500,000 years before present, would “explain these cases very satisfactorily.”
Other than the Atlas Bear (extinct by the 1800s), no bears are known to be native to Africa, besides those of the prehistoric genera Agriotherium and Indarctos, which died out 4.4 million years ago. Louis Leakey suggested that Nandi Bear descriptions matched that of the extinct Chalicotherium, though chalicotheres were herbivores.
![[image] [image]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Atlasbear.jpg)
[On the other hand this article was supplied as a rebuttal to photographs of a recent bear's skull which supposedly came from East Africa, together with Roman reports of "Ethiopian Bears" such as the one illustrated in the mosaic here. If real bears were in the area then they are easily the best fulfillment of the reports and all other bets are off.-DD]
The Nandi people call it Kerit. Local legend holds that it only eats the brain of its victims. Nandi Bears were regularly reported in Kenya throughout the 19th century and early 20th century. Bernard Heuvelmans’s On the Track of Unknown Animals and Karl Shuker’s In Search of Prehistoric Survivors provide the most extensive chronicles of Nandi bear sightings in print.”
In fact, Zoologists were making a connection between the stories the Nandi peoples had been telling of a fearsome, man killing, brain eating deadly night creature they called “Gereit” might exist and was in fact, chalicotherium. The drawing above, right is from that 1924 article and is a depiction of chalicotherium.
“Chalicotherium, genus of extinct perissodactyls, the order including the horse and rhinoceros. Fossil remains of the genus are common in deposits of Asia, Europe, and Africa from the Miocene Epoch (23 to 5.3 million years ago). The genus persisted into the following Pliocene Epoch, and remains of a related genus, Moropus, are found in North America.

There were no hooves; instead, each of the three toes on each foot terminated in a strongly developed claw. It is probable that the development of claws was related to the feeding habits of the animal. Chalicotherium may have browsed on branches of trees, pulling them down with the front claws; the claws may also have been employed to dig up roots and tubers.”…Encyclopedia Britannica
The Crux: is the Nandi Bear a Chalicotherium? And What of the Lions of the Terrace at Delos?
Photo: Left, drawing of the Nandi bear from eyewitness accounts [More likely eyewitness accounts of wild dogs] and Right, a frontal view of one of the Terrace of Lions, “lions”.

The Nandi bear is also a cryptid whose description fits no known, living animal so the late survival of some animal thought to have been prehistoric are put forward as potential suspects. Hyenadon is another animal thought to have been prehistoric that has also been put forth as a potential suspect for the same reasons; high front shoulders, long front legs and a sloping back.
The chalicotherium ID is interesting in that this animal also has very unusual feet and claws which set him apart.
Photo:Comparison of admittedly carefully selected chalicotherium depiction inserted into old photo of Naxian (Terrace of Lions) Lion at Delos. [Emphasis added-DD]

I did a quick Google search for prehistoric animals with long front legs and immediately was taken to articles about chalicotherium. Articles about chalicotherium also eventually led to articles concerning modern day speculation by cryptozoologists that chalicotherium was a potential match for the Nandi bear, a cryptid that I was unaware of.
The photo at the top of this section shows a very common drawing of the Nandi bear (of unknown source -On Monster Wiki, Uncredited: RW Bemjamin suspected artist) along with a frontal photo of one of the lions of the Terrace of Lions. This is interesting because as far as I know no one has ever speculated that the “lions” of the Terrace of Lions has anything to do with either the Nandi bear or with chalicotherium. So is this visual similarity (if your filters aren’t preventing you from seeing it or mine forcing me to) just a coincidence?
Chalicotheres are usually depicted as thick, slow and sloth-like and not as fast, relatively slim and dangerous as the lions of Delos seem to appear.
Photo:Comparison of the skeleton of chalicotherium with a Naxian “lion” from the Delos Museum.

We also remember that last year a scientific journal reported that scientists now believe that due to an error in a formula they have been using that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by as much as 50% to 33%. The size of their bones are known it was the amount of meat the artists were throwing on the bone that is in question. This suggests that certain dinosaurs were depicted as much bulkier animals than they actually were. Could this be true of chalicotherium?
When artists or illustrators depict known animals the variety of the depictions, the form, the poses can be infinite because the real creature can appear in infinite poses and can be seen from infinite angles.
This not the case with unknown creatures. Inevitably, once a depiction of an animal is made (a guess) all other depictions take the shape of the reference depiction (or first few) and there becomes a limited view of the shape of the creature and even the poses that the animal is shown in. This group think about the look of an unknown creature appears to be inevitable. A radical departure from the consensus view of the creature won’t even be recognized as a depiction of said creature.
Chalicotherium has three toes on each foot ending in claws. Still, the front and back feet are completely different from each other. Are there Nandi bear descriptions of three-toed feet? (By the way lions have five toes in front and four on their back feet).
Here is an antique, eyewitness account of an encounter with the Nandi bear:
“…the whole tent rocked; the pole to which Mbwambi was tied flew out and let down the ridge-pole, enveloping me in flapping canvas. At the same moment the most awful howl I have ever heard split the night. The sheer demoniac horror of it froze me still…I heard my pi-dog yelp just once. There was a crashing of branches in the bush, and then thud, thud, thud, of some huge beast making off. But that howl! I have heard half a dozen lions roaring in a stampede-chorus not twenty yards away; I have heard a maddened cow-elephant trumpeting; I have heard a trapped leopard make the silent night miles a rocking agony with screaming, snarling roars. But never have I heard, nor do I wish to hear again, such a howl as that of the chimiset. A trail of red spots on the sand showed where my pi-dog had gone. Beside that trail were huge footprints, four times as big as a man’s, showing the imprint of three huge clawed toes, with trefoil marks like a lion’s pad where the sole of the foot pressed down. But no lion ever boasted such a paw as that of the monster which had made that terrifying spoor.” Karl Shuker’s Blog
The Nandi bear has been described as having five or six toes in various accounts over the last century as well. I believe that Dale Drinnon who has written extensively on the Nandi bear postulates that the six toed account is assumed to have been where the back feet stepped into an existing three-toed front track.
Various descriptions noted that the animal liked to sit back on its haunches, described it as bear-like (hence the name) having large feet and as being brown in color.
Photo: The interesting foot of the Naxian lion from the Delos Museum compared with the interesting rear foot of the chalicotherium.

We’ve shown here additional photographs comparing the feet of chalicotherium with those on the Delos lions-both front and rear as well as a number of photographs comparing the physiology, including the long front legs and sloping back.
Photo:A comparison of the three clawed front foot of chalicotherium with the front feet of the Delos, Naxian Lion.

I’ve concluded that the skeleton does lend itself to the Delos, Terrace of Lions, chalicotherium which has closely matching front and back feet, the long front legs and the sloping back of the fossil chalicotherium. Even the long hair (mane) of the statues fails to accurately depict the mane of a lion and does remind me of the long hair on certain sloths.
It appears that there is reason to connect the chalicotherium; a creature that supposedly became extinct 5-7 million years ago to the Naxian Lions at Delos. There appears to be some evidence that there is a connection between the Nandi bear of Kenya and Central Africa and the chalicotherium. The elongated bodies of the Naxian lions could be a match for the elongated bodies, and unusual feet of the chalicotherium which could aide in an affirmative identification and prove that chalicotherium was a “late survivor” and could even still be alive.
One More Mystery; Are They Telling the Truth About this Great Monument-or are They Still Lion? Filters On?

Sigiriya (Lion’s rock) Sri Lnkan Mega Site
“In 1831 Major Jonathan Forbes of the 78th Highlanders of the British army, while returning on horseback from a trip to Pollonnuruwa, came across the “bush covered summit of Sigiriya”. Sigiriya came to the attention of antiquarians and, later, archaeologists. Archaeological work at Sigiriya began on a small scale in the 1890s. H.C.P. Bell was the first archaeologist to conduct extensive research on Sigiriya. The Cultural Triangle Project, launched by the Government of Sri Lanka, focused its attention on Sigiriya in 1982. Archaeological work began on the entire city for the first time under this project. There was a sculpted lion’s head above the legs and paws flanking the entrance, but the head broke down many years ago”….Wikipedia
Sigiriya consists of an ancient castle built by King Kasiappan during the 5th century. The Sigiriya site has the remains of an upper palace sited on the flat top of the rock, a mid-level terrace that includes the Lion Gate and the mirror wall with its frescoes, the lower palace that clings to the slopes below the rock, and the moats, walls, and gardens that extend for some hundreds of metres out from the base of the rock.
The site is both a palace and a fortress. Despite its age, the splendor of the palace still furnishes a stunning insight into the ingenuity and creativity of its builders. The upper palace on the top of the rock includes cisterns cut into the rock that still retain water. The moats and walls that surround the lower palace are still exquisitely beautiful.
During Kassapa’s reign in the 5th century AD, a massive, 60-foot lion was chiseled out of the rock. The steps which continued up to the royal palace started at the lion’s feet, wrapped around his body and eventually entered his mouth. Today, all that remain are the paws, but they give a good idea of the statue’s scale. It’s hard to appreciate how impressive it must have been 1500 years ago. It would be impressive now.Here is the mystery; the lion’s head has fallen down and that years ago. One of the most famous parts of the entire sight is the gigantic “lion’s Paws that begin the assent to the next level. But the paws rendered in great detail, are of a creature with three claws on each foot (a fourth toe is also shown). Lions have five total claws on each front foot although one claw is a “thumb” that usually does not show in a foot print.
The final flight of stairs, hugging tightly to the stone wall, is not for those who suffer from vertigo…Great Photos as the site of srilanka for 91days.com

At least cryptozoologists ought to be asking about the three-clawed lion–if not biologists.
Seriously, is it even reasonable to suppose that the people who built this great monument intended it to represent a three toed lion? What creature, perhaps lion-like in demeanor could be confused with a depiction of a lion- and have three sharp claws on its front feet?
Well, certain dinosaurs might fit the bill–and of course there is the Naxian lion come chalicotherium….
Tags: Bible, chalicotherium, creation, cryptids, cryptozooarchaeology, cryptozoology, Delos, evolution, Genesis, God, lion mountain, lions, Nandi bear, Naxian lions, paradigm, s8int.com, sigiriya, Terrace of Lions, three toed
[The real problem in the proposition of candidates for living Chalicotheres is that the latest fossil ones in Africa are more like the supposed reports from Asia and the latest fossil ones from Asia are more like the supposed reports from Africa, as pointed out by Christine Janis . Chalicothere claws are also not like the clawed lion feet shown but are pointed hooves, more like giant groundsloth claws. The Nandi Bear is NOT a good match! --Best Wishes, Dale D.]
[The real problem in the proposition of candidates for living Chalicotheres is that the latest fossil ones in Africa are more like the supposed reports from Asia and the latest fossil ones from Asia are more like the supposed reports from Africa, as pointed out by Christine Janis . Chalicothere claws are also not like the clawed lion feet shown but are pointed hooves, more like giant groundsloth claws. The Nandi Bear is NOT a good match! --Best Wishes, Dale D.]
Labels:
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Monday, 9 May 2011
Is The Nandi Bear Actually a Bear?

Putitive Nandi Bear Skull from a sale of the effects of an African estate. Please note that it is plainly marked as saying "Tanzania" as the place of origin right on the skull itself.
American Brown Bear Skull for Comparison
I had mentioned to Karl Shuker recently that when the group Frontiers of Zoology was new I had entered a skull of what could have been the actual Nandi Bear as a BEAR. I said I would go back into the back messages to see what the discussion there was at the time. I am not through the search of the message archive yet but this part made clear reference to the matter:
Message #425 of 6785
Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:19 pm
Dave Francazio wrote:
...But honestly I don't see how the evidence for the Nandi Bear points to a chalicothere.
Captain Hichens says that the Nandi Bear howls. (and has a distinct howl)
Although we will never know if the chalicothere of the Pleistocene howled, we can suspect it didn't since one more closelys associates howling with canines rather than ungulates.
The Spoor of the Nandi Bear-"there is a body of evidence that this astounding beast leaves a pug-mark with six pads and six claws showing on each paw "
Chalicothere have three toes, not 6.
Also, descriptions of the Nandi Bear do not match the reconstruction in Janis' article. Hichen describes the Nandi Bear as similar to a "lioness, later, a side-view of its head gave the impression of a snout, the head being very large, while the beast stood very high forward, 4 ft. 3 ins. to 4 ft. 6 ins. at the shoulder. "The back," they say, "sloped steeply to the hindquarters and the animal moved with a shambling gait which can best be compared with the shuffle of a bear. The coat was thick and dark brown in colour."
Now the Chalicothere depicted in Janis' article is larger than this and is not similar in body shape to a lioness. It seems more likely that they are describing a variation of hyaena. When she mentions the tail, i think she is talking about a long fluffy tail which Saint Peter's "wolf" does have. Although Captain Hichens makes no mention of a tail, another explorer Geoffrey Williams explicitly says that the creature had no tail.
Chalicotheres are also herbivorous and do not seem particularly fierce. Yet, Hichens does state that the Nandi Bear has the tendency to "to lie up in trees and, waylaying natives passing on the track below, to reach down a hairy paw and rip open their skulls." This reminds me of a leopard bringing its prey up into trees.
The only real piece of evidence that links the Nandi Bear with the Chalicothere is the sloping back. Correct?
Most sightings of the Nandi Bear seem to be at night which would make it nocturnal (making it harder to catch.) Now do leopards attack villages at night?
Here is what I have for characteristics of the Nandi Bear:
Nocturnal
Predatory?
4'-5' tall at the shoulder
Walks With a shuffle
Thick Skin
Thick Fur
Long Snout
Sloped Back
Six Pads and Six Claws in the Spoor.
No Tail?
[Presumably the marks of six pads and six toes indicates a composite track with the mark of the hind foot stepping into the print of the forefoot-DD]

Nandi Bear's Track
Message #425 of 6785
Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:19 pm
Dave Francazio wrote:
...But honestly I don't see how the evidence for the Nandi Bear points to a chalicothere.
Captain Hichens says that the Nandi Bear howls. (and has a distinct howl)
Although we will never know if the chalicothere of the Pleistocene howled, we can suspect it didn't since one more closelys associates howling with canines rather than ungulates.
The Spoor of the Nandi Bear-"there is a body of evidence that this astounding beast leaves a pug-mark with six pads and six claws showing on each paw "
Chalicothere have three toes, not 6.
Also, descriptions of the Nandi Bear do not match the reconstruction in Janis' article. Hichen describes the Nandi Bear as similar to a "lioness, later, a side-view of its head gave the impression of a snout, the head being very large, while the beast stood very high forward, 4 ft. 3 ins. to 4 ft. 6 ins. at the shoulder. "The back," they say, "sloped steeply to the hindquarters and the animal moved with a shambling gait which can best be compared with the shuffle of a bear. The coat was thick and dark brown in colour."
Now the Chalicothere depicted in Janis' article is larger than this and is not similar in body shape to a lioness. It seems more likely that they are describing a variation of hyaena. When she mentions the tail, i think she is talking about a long fluffy tail which Saint Peter's "wolf" does have. Although Captain Hichens makes no mention of a tail, another explorer Geoffrey Williams explicitly says that the creature had no tail.
Chalicotheres are also herbivorous and do not seem particularly fierce. Yet, Hichens does state that the Nandi Bear has the tendency to "to lie up in trees and, waylaying natives passing on the track below, to reach down a hairy paw and rip open their skulls." This reminds me of a leopard bringing its prey up into trees.
The only real piece of evidence that links the Nandi Bear with the Chalicothere is the sloping back. Correct?
Most sightings of the Nandi Bear seem to be at night which would make it nocturnal (making it harder to catch.) Now do leopards attack villages at night?
Here is what I have for characteristics of the Nandi Bear:
Nocturnal
Predatory?
4'-5' tall at the shoulder
Walks With a shuffle
Thick Skin
Thick Fur
Long Snout
Sloped Back
Six Pads and Six Claws in the Spoor.
No Tail?
[Presumably the marks of six pads and six toes indicates a composite track with the mark of the hind foot stepping into the print of the forefoot-DD]

Nandi Bear's Track
.....
Message #426 of 6785
Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:09 pm
Dale Drinnon wrote:
Actually, I do not consider the Chalicothere a good
match for the Nandi bear. When the native said "that
is the Chemosit you are describing", "Chemosit" is
about the same as "monster, or even "Boogeyman".
I have seen the alternate account where 5 claws are
mentioned, and in fact I recently posted a message on
the subject which mentioned a track with three claws
on it (but like a big dog's pawprint)
Personally, I do see evidence for an ASIATIC
Chalicothere as Janis says, but the curious thing is,
it may have survived in Africa and then went back to
Asia as she suggests. This is the "Clawed horse"
type, and yes, that does sound better (you will notice
that I was using the Moropus "Big Hyena" bodyshaped
chalicothere as my reference there because that was
the more recent ASIATIC type.)
As to the Nandi bear itself, I think that the big
shortfaced hyend that Shuker suggested is a strong
candidate. But as I also mentioned recently, one of my
photo searches turned up what was said to be a recent
BEAR skull from Tanzania, and that made it also possible
to say once again that we really are talking about a
BEAR as a candidate.
Best Wishes, Dale D.
Quote Message #380 of 6785, Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:41 am
On one of my photo searches I found what was presented as a bear
skull from Kenya[Actually Tanzania, and the photo still retains the record that it was posted on December 15, 2006-DD]. This basically set me to thinking that Heuvelmans had been arguing all around the obvious solution, that the Nandi Bear actually WAS a bear. Certainly the first description by Geoffrey
Williams in 1905 sounds exactly like a bear, and the tracks are
closer to bear tracks than anything elser, although somewhat
schematically drawn. The tracks at theMagadi railway were also
backed up by a report by Hickes also sounds more than unusually close
to a bear.
It is also tempting to draw a parallel between the relationship of
the actual reports/the animal itself and the exaggerated stories told
about the Chemosit To the Europeans' actual experience of bears as
contrasted to the stories of Bogey Bears (Bugbears)Furthermore, it
fights with its forepaws and takes swipes at people with those big
claws that can rip the tops of their heads open: no other candidate
comes close to matching that behavior.
In Roman times, bears like typical European brown bears were
evidently known and reported in Ethiopia. The Khodumodumo of the
Transvaal in South Africa also seems to be related to the Nandi bear
(On The Track, page 259 of my edition)And its tracks, like Hichen's
tracks described just prior to the reference, are foot-wide FOREPAW
prints with long nonretractile claws: this would almost have to be a
big bear's forepaw, since, as the witnessed noted, no lion ever had
tracks like that. (Hichen's tracks were partial and reported as three-
toed, but also as "Spade-shaped and turned-in, a bearlike trait" The
claws were two inches long at least) So there is some reason to
suspect that if it IS a bear, at one point in Historical times it
ranged down the entire length of East Africa.
Saying this, it is not necessary that ALL the "smaller bearlike"
reports are of dark-colored ratels: they could really also be the
younger Dubas.["Duba"=Bear in Arabic and hence in Swahili]

Zoo Bear, Comparable to the Oldest Nandi Bear sightings.
The original site where I got the photo is still up but unfortunately it is apparently mined: my computer refuses to go there because of the threat of infection by viruses. But I did find reference to the discussion as it had been going on at one of the Cryptozoology discussion boards:
http://www.cryptozoology.com/forum/topic_view_thread.php?tid=4&pid=303147
Best wishes, Dale D.
Scale Comparison of a Brown Bear and a Male African Lion
Message #426 of 6785
Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:09 pm
Dale Drinnon wrote:
Actually, I do not consider the Chalicothere a good
match for the Nandi bear. When the native said "that
is the Chemosit you are describing", "Chemosit" is
about the same as "monster, or even "Boogeyman".
I have seen the alternate account where 5 claws are
mentioned, and in fact I recently posted a message on
the subject which mentioned a track with three claws
on it (but like a big dog's pawprint)
Personally, I do see evidence for an ASIATIC
Chalicothere as Janis says, but the curious thing is,
it may have survived in Africa and then went back to
Asia as she suggests. This is the "Clawed horse"
type, and yes, that does sound better (you will notice
that I was using the Moropus "Big Hyena" bodyshaped
chalicothere as my reference there because that was
the more recent ASIATIC type.)
As to the Nandi bear itself, I think that the big
shortfaced hyend that Shuker suggested is a strong
candidate. But as I also mentioned recently, one of my
photo searches turned up what was said to be a recent
BEAR skull from Tanzania, and that made it also possible
to say once again that we really are talking about a
BEAR as a candidate.
Best Wishes, Dale D.
Quote Message #380 of 6785, Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:41 am
On one of my photo searches I found what was presented as a bear
skull from Kenya[Actually Tanzania, and the photo still retains the record that it was posted on December 15, 2006-DD]. This basically set me to thinking that Heuvelmans had been arguing all around the obvious solution, that the Nandi Bear actually WAS a bear. Certainly the first description by Geoffrey
Williams in 1905 sounds exactly like a bear, and the tracks are
closer to bear tracks than anything elser, although somewhat
schematically drawn. The tracks at theMagadi railway were also
backed up by a report by Hickes also sounds more than unusually close
to a bear.
It is also tempting to draw a parallel between the relationship of
the actual reports/the animal itself and the exaggerated stories told
about the Chemosit To the Europeans' actual experience of bears as
contrasted to the stories of Bogey Bears (Bugbears)Furthermore, it
fights with its forepaws and takes swipes at people with those big
claws that can rip the tops of their heads open: no other candidate
comes close to matching that behavior.
In Roman times, bears like typical European brown bears were
evidently known and reported in Ethiopia. The Khodumodumo of the
Transvaal in South Africa also seems to be related to the Nandi bear
(On The Track, page 259 of my edition)And its tracks, like Hichen's
tracks described just prior to the reference, are foot-wide FOREPAW
prints with long nonretractile claws: this would almost have to be a
big bear's forepaw, since, as the witnessed noted, no lion ever had
tracks like that. (Hichen's tracks were partial and reported as three-
toed, but also as "Spade-shaped and turned-in, a bearlike trait" The
claws were two inches long at least) So there is some reason to
suspect that if it IS a bear, at one point in Historical times it
ranged down the entire length of East Africa.
Saying this, it is not necessary that ALL the "smaller bearlike"
reports are of dark-colored ratels: they could really also be the
younger Dubas.["Duba"=Bear in Arabic and hence in Swahili]

Zoo Bear, Comparable to the Oldest Nandi Bear sightings.
The original site where I got the photo is still up but unfortunately it is apparently mined: my computer refuses to go there because of the threat of infection by viruses. But I did find reference to the discussion as it had been going on at one of the Cryptozoology discussion boards:
http://www.cryptozoology.com/forum/topic_view_thread.php?tid=4&pid=303147
Cryptozoology forums; Cryptids & Other Unknown Mammals; view thread
Subject: Re: Brown Bear in Africa?
From: Mngwa posted Sun, Nov 13 2005, 9:12pm
Thanks. I’m having trouble making out individual teeth. I stuck your pics in Photoshop and had too much interference from pixellation to achieve greater detail. If I’m making the teeth out right, however, it appears that there are only 3 or 4 teeth (molars and premolars) visible in the upper skull and I can only discern 2 or 3 in the bottom. The premolars also appear to be highly developed. This would be consistent with a lion’s dentition pattern of incisors 3/3, canines 1/1, premolars 3/2 and molars 1/1, for a total of 30 teeth and the development of shearing premolars for a carnivorous lifestyle. Brown bears have less-developed, flatter premolars and a dentition pattern of incisors 3/3, canines 1/1, premolars 4/4, molars 3/2, for a total of 42 teeth. Note, there has been some variation in number of premolars documented among individuals of Ursus arctos, but a bear would still have more teeth than a lion. The dental formula can be determined by dividing the skull in the middle, and starting at that symmetrical midpoint, count the teeth moving backwards. Each type of tooth is counted individually, with top teeth being the number in front of the slash. I can easily make out the incisors (3 top/3 bottom) and the canines (1 top/1bottom) from your original picture. You could finish the equation yourself simply by counting the top and bottom teeth from the canines (not including the canines) backwards on one side. If you have 7 premolars and molars, it’s probably a lion, 11-13 and it’s probably a brown bear.
Does the jawbone separate from the top of the skull? If so, how about a picture of the top portion, like you’re taking a picture of the roof of the mouth? I wanted to get a look at the bullae. Felids have large, divided bullae, while ursids have smaller ones. I can’t make out the bullae from the pics you’ve posted.
Mngwa
Subject: Re: Brown Bear in Africa?
From: Barrett posted Sun, Nov 13 2005, 11:15pm
Thank you for your input. I,ve posted the pictures you requested. I hope they are sufficient. Sharon
Subject: Re: Brown Bear in Africa?
From: Mngwa posted Tue, Nov 15 2005, 8:01am
Exactly what I wanted to see, I'm comfortable saying that it is indeed a bear skull. Lion skulls average in the 14" range, give or take depending on which expert or source you quote, so I initially thought it was a bear. Then I was cross-referencing my literature with various websites, and stumbled across a site that discussed some large lion skulls over 16", and 17 3/4" didn't seem quite impossible, especially with a possible origin in Tanzania, where there aren't supposed to be any bears. I won't ask for any more pictures now, Sharon! :)
Quoted from your post below:
...the skull was originally part of an estate sale. It was reported that the signing of the skull took place in Africa. The identifacation as being a lion skull was probably assumed; related to its African origin. We ~ having reason to believe it is from Africa due to the estate having other African artifacts.
Interesting, I'm assuming this estate sale was here in the states, and not in Tanzania? Do you know anything about the individual whose estate you acquired the skull from? That may tell you a lot. To be perfectly honest with you, I have to wonder if at some time during the history of the skull the date and location were added to con the unsuspecting. Throw it in with a few African artifacts in place of a real lion skull, I suspect the average art/artifact collector wouldn't know the difference. Then again, I tend to be pessimistic about human nature.
There are several other ideas about how a bear skull ended up in Africa, or at least coming from Africa, posted over the course of the thread. You've been quiet on the matter, what is your take on it?
Ivan
So far as I knew, the matter was never resolved. But it is another matter where the specimen itself was labelled with an indication of its source location and if the information is to be relied upon it is a very valuable specimen indeed.Subject: Re: Brown Bear in Africa?
From: Mngwa posted Sun, Nov 13 2005, 9:12pm
Thanks. I’m having trouble making out individual teeth. I stuck your pics in Photoshop and had too much interference from pixellation to achieve greater detail. If I’m making the teeth out right, however, it appears that there are only 3 or 4 teeth (molars and premolars) visible in the upper skull and I can only discern 2 or 3 in the bottom. The premolars also appear to be highly developed. This would be consistent with a lion’s dentition pattern of incisors 3/3, canines 1/1, premolars 3/2 and molars 1/1, for a total of 30 teeth and the development of shearing premolars for a carnivorous lifestyle. Brown bears have less-developed, flatter premolars and a dentition pattern of incisors 3/3, canines 1/1, premolars 4/4, molars 3/2, for a total of 42 teeth. Note, there has been some variation in number of premolars documented among individuals of Ursus arctos, but a bear would still have more teeth than a lion. The dental formula can be determined by dividing the skull in the middle, and starting at that symmetrical midpoint, count the teeth moving backwards. Each type of tooth is counted individually, with top teeth being the number in front of the slash. I can easily make out the incisors (3 top/3 bottom) and the canines (1 top/1bottom) from your original picture. You could finish the equation yourself simply by counting the top and bottom teeth from the canines (not including the canines) backwards on one side. If you have 7 premolars and molars, it’s probably a lion, 11-13 and it’s probably a brown bear.
Does the jawbone separate from the top of the skull? If so, how about a picture of the top portion, like you’re taking a picture of the roof of the mouth? I wanted to get a look at the bullae. Felids have large, divided bullae, while ursids have smaller ones. I can’t make out the bullae from the pics you’ve posted.
Mngwa

From: Barrett posted Sun, Nov 13 2005, 11:15pm
Thank you for your input. I,ve posted the pictures you requested. I hope they are sufficient. Sharon
Subject: Re: Brown Bear in Africa?
From: Mngwa posted Tue, Nov 15 2005, 8:01am
Exactly what I wanted to see, I'm comfortable saying that it is indeed a bear skull. Lion skulls average in the 14" range, give or take depending on which expert or source you quote, so I initially thought it was a bear. Then I was cross-referencing my literature with various websites, and stumbled across a site that discussed some large lion skulls over 16", and 17 3/4" didn't seem quite impossible, especially with a possible origin in Tanzania, where there aren't supposed to be any bears. I won't ask for any more pictures now, Sharon! :)
Quoted from your post below:
...the skull was originally part of an estate sale. It was reported that the signing of the skull took place in Africa. The identifacation as being a lion skull was probably assumed; related to its African origin. We ~ having reason to believe it is from Africa due to the estate having other African artifacts.
Interesting, I'm assuming this estate sale was here in the states, and not in Tanzania? Do you know anything about the individual whose estate you acquired the skull from? That may tell you a lot. To be perfectly honest with you, I have to wonder if at some time during the history of the skull the date and location were added to con the unsuspecting. Throw it in with a few African artifacts in place of a real lion skull, I suspect the average art/artifact collector wouldn't know the difference. Then again, I tend to be pessimistic about human nature.
There are several other ideas about how a bear skull ended up in Africa, or at least coming from Africa, posted over the course of the thread. You've been quiet on the matter, what is your take on it?
Ivan
Best wishes, Dale D.
Cave Bear Skeleton
Scale Comparison of a Brown Bear and a Male African Lion
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