Champ Reconstructions Followup

The  owner of the Lake Monsters Facebook page went ahead and made up this lovely piece of artwork depicting a typical Lake monster (saying it could be Loch Ness or Lake Champlain, or anywhere where the Longnecked creatures venture inland) and using my composite published on this page recently. While this was unauthorised use of my image I was very glad to see it and I thanked him for making it up.

Scott Mardis had told me that some theorists at Lake Champlain think the creature could be a large turtle: Both Scott Mardis an I feel that an actual plesiosaur would be more likely than a giant turtle that looks so much like a plesiosaur otherwise.

Recently I mentioned Tim Dinsdale's reconstruction for the Loch Ness Monsteras coming out statistically close to mine, and so here is a news photo of a young Tim Dinsdale showing off his composite model, and below, the Australian version, which is nearly identical once again(allowing for 2 or 3 humps equally)

Scott Mardis sent some materials about the Australian Aboriginal Yarru, which he thought seemed to have small rounded rocks inside like the Plesiosaur's gatroliths

Driver, Rebecca. 1999. Australia’s Aborigines ... did they see dinosaurs? Creation Ex Nihilo 21(1):24–27.

Dennis Fields, a former missionary to Far North Queensland’s Kuku Yalanji tribespeople, told the CMIministry in Australia some years ago of a story the elders of the tribe told him, of a creature called Yarru (or Yarrba). The tribe inhabits the rainforest regions, where there are a number of waterholes in which, in earlier days, Yarru was said to live. There is a story of how the Yarru devoured a young maiden. The missionary asked one of the tribe’s artists to paint the story for him. The tribal artist, with very little formal education, had no knowledge of what so-called prehistoric animals looked like, and was drawing only from the descriptions handed down in the ancient stories. The painting (later donated to Creation International Ministries, and shown at the right [below]) shows a creature with a remarkable resemblance to the extinct Plesiosaurus.

Yarru or Yarrba (Plesiosaur) Painting

 European sightings of water monsters also often match this description.[11] Most evolutionists, however, find this unacceptable, since they insist such creatures vanished with the dinosaurs over 65 million years ago. For centuries, the Dharuk people have spoken of the mighty ‘Mirreeulla,’ whose home is the Hawkesbury River near Sydney. Sightings of plesiosaur-like creatures in this river have continued to modern times, with some estimating the creature at up to 15 metres (50 feet) long.

[11. Nessie’s kin? Creation 18(4):18, September 1996]

Scott also showed this diagram of an Elasmosaur to show where the gastroliths were located

And below a "Cadborosaurus" report with a 3-humped Plesiosaur-shaped creature giving some indication about the "Mane" (which is a point of contention in such reports). 

 This is actually another "Sea Giraffe" with a fairly short mane, described as being like a "fin" (fleshy material) and with a length of a few inches  (3-6 inches irregularly, it looks like from the witness' drawings)

Plesiosaur and Giant Eel Bunyips

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The many forms of Bunyip:
Dog Faced, Plesiosaur, Longnecked, and Sea-dog.


Bunyip Models for Contest, Spore Forum
I would say that the Longnecked one shown is a Plesiosaur with falsely assumed quadruped legs, rather like a Sirrush after Ted Holliday.

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-australian-mythical-creatures.php

In New South Wales lies the Hawkesbury River, home to one of Australia’s strangest cryptids. The beast, known simply as the Hawkesbury River Monster, is a kind of aquatic lizard, much like the Loch Ness Monster of Scotland. Descriptions of the creature liken it to the prehistoric plesiosaur, extinct for 70 million years. Sightings report that it is between 7 and 24 meters long [between 23 and 80 feet long-the last is probably an exaggeration]. It supposedly has two sets of flippers and a lengthy, snakelike neck and head. The monster was first heard of by settlers in the 1800s, although there is Aboriginal rock art over 3-4000 years old in the area that describes the creature. The settlers were told stories by the Aboriginals of woman and children being attacked by the moolyewonk or mirreeular, both of them Aboriginal names for the monster that lurks in the river. Much like its Scottish cousin, the Hawkesbury River Monster has gained significant attention from the scientific world. Many hunters and crytozoologists have spent decades trying to locate and/or catch the monster. There have been hundreds of reported sightings, so the odds are the monster hunters will be scouring the area for many years to come.

[The Longnecked/SeaSerpent Bunyip is also known by the traditional Bunyip names such as Yarru 
 Ya-hu or Yero, or Whowie, confusingly similar to the humanoid Yahoo or Wowie.
 The "Big Eel" description is similarly referred to by the same "Bunyip" names, also Bolong-DD]

ha!

Deep in the Murray River of South Australia lurks a terrible race of creatures known as the muldjewangk. Details on the creature vary. Some say that they are a race of merfolk.[others that it is a type of  gigantic eel-like fish as pictured]  Others say that it is but a single giant monster. But one thing is constant: you don’t want to mess with them. Supposedly hiding under clumps of floating seaweed, the muldjewangk destroy fishing nets and disturb those who are foolish enough to enter their territory. Though some local elders claim that the muldjewangk no longer exist, they still thrive in stories told to naughty children to keep them from playing by the river after dark.
Read more: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-australian-mythical-creatures.php#ixzz1nXth1OeL
http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/2009/11/lindsay-selby-australian-giant-eel.html

Lindsay Selby posted about giant Australian eels back at the end of 2009. The photo at left was posted in a followup article posted on a different site. Here is Lindsay's article again:

LINDSAY SELBY: Australian Giant Eel story tantalisingly unfinished

I found the following from 2005 whilst browsing the web:

Wednesday, February 23, 2005. 'Loch Ness' eel frightens tourist”

A monster eel, which is believed to have taken up residence at a Warburton trout farm, east of Melbourne, has reportedly been sighted this morning. The eel, which is said to be at least three metres long with a head the size of a football, has been scaring fishermen at Tommy Finn's trout farm. Farm manager Gary Wales says an Irish tourist got the fright of his life when he encountered the eel early this morning. "Next thing he's banging on me bloody wall on the door of the house, banging, saying 'Gary, Gary I've seen it'. So I flew out of bed right, I said 'how big is it mate?' He said 'big as my bloody car'," he said. The operators of a trout farm are offering a $1000 reward to anyone who catches what has been described as Melbourne's own Loch Ness monster. It is believed the eel washed into the farm's ponds during this month's record breaking storms. source:http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200502/s1308868.htm

Reward offered for Melbourne 'Loch Ness' eel

The operators of a trout farm are offering a $1000 reward to anyone who catches Melbourne's own Loch Ness monster. A giant eel, believed to be around four metres long with a head the size of a football has been spotted at the trout farm at Warburton. It is believed the eel washed into the farm's ponds during this month's record breaking storms. Farm manager Gary Wales says efforts to catch the giant creature have so far been unsuccessful. "We don't want it harmed, this things probably 30-years-old, and he's come here probably by mistake and he's found himself a good little home and plenty of food," he said. "We hope to catch him alive and take him to the Melbourne Aquarium." He says he has never heard of such a large eel before. "No. Maybe it's Nessy, Nessy's offspring maybe, who knows, but no, it's a big eel.

source:http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200502/s1307064.htm

Does anyone in CFZ world know if they caught it and what happened to it? It would be fascinating to study and may well be a relative of Nessie!

CFZ Blog on Plesiosaurian Taniwhas-REPOST

http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/2010/04/dale-drinnon-plesiosaurian-taniwhas.html

Wednesday, April 21, 2010 DALE DRINNON: Plesiosaurian Taniwhas

[Plesiosaurus Fossil Skeleton above, Please note the shape of the Limb Girdles]

I had mentioned this in my yahoo group Frontiers of Zoology before. Tony Lucas is a member of the group. When we were discussing the Australian depiction of a plesiosaur on Lindsay's blog recently {see at end of this posting] I mentioned it again and I sent Tony a reminder message separately. Since then I received the suggestion that I post the information to the blog. The petroglyph long-necked Taniwahas are a traditional design and I include a modern piece of jewlery based on the design as confirmation the matter is already known locally (Left above).

In the case of the two long-necked Taniwhas, I have taken a scan of the petroglyphs from the rock face (which also include a thunderbird design and what could well be an elephant seal with a long nose) and rearranged them to be side by side. The creatures are about 60 feet long if human scale is accurate; female is shorter than male (neck not included in copy). Among other useful observations: the species has one opening in the rear (a cloaca) and the male has a single penis (not like snakes). And the limbs and limb girdles resemble those of plesiosaurs. The limb girdles also correspond to the equivalent water monster in the Phillipines and I attach a re-drawing of a textile illustrated in the Hamlyn Treasury of Primitive Art. I do not know the name of the creature but it seems to be called by the generic name of "Shark" (Chacon. Shark is one of the possible translations for Taniwha).

Rock-art Taniwha's limb compared to Plesiosaur's Flipper Skeleton And the Plesiosaurian design of the limbs is mentioned obliquely in other traditions. Different descriptions of water monster's feet in different parts of the world include the curious detail that there is a "Tiger's Palm" in the middle of the limb. This included the traditional description of the Chinese dragon. This is also told of the "Patagonian Plesiosaur". Circled in red of the plesiosaur's flipper skeleton illustration is the "Tiger's Paw".

Different descriptions of Water Monster's feet in different parts of the world include the curious detail that there is a "Tiger's Palm" in the middle of the limb. This included the traditional description of the Chinese dragon. Circled in red is the "Tiger's Paw". This is also told of the "Patagonian Plesiosaur".

I also include some Precolumbian "Patagonian Plesiosaur" depictions, which seem to be the direct parallel to the long-necked Taniwha depictions in New Zealand. 'Taniwha' is a generic and not a specific name, I might hasten to emphasise. You might say it was the equivalent to the English word 'monster.'

The Bagabo textile does not show just the one creature; it shows a pattern of two different things repeating in alternation. One image shows the whole creature between the legs of a human being (not shown in earlier reproduction) and this alternates with a depiction of a human in the belly of the beast. I was not certain whether to include it because it is not certain the same creature is being depicted, but one interpretation is that the larger head of the creature in this version is seen much closer to and its size is exaggerated in perspective (after all, that excuse is used in standard lake monster reports at Lochs Ness and Morar). At any event, it is not a crocodile since it has a "Snakehead" (Bagabo Textile, Mindinao, Phillipines, Hamlyn Treasury of Primitive Art, Plate 39, redrawn)

There is a problem in getting information about any of these creatures.
The actual names of the creatures are taboo and must not be mentioned. Thus, I do not know the name of the creature illustrated on the textile. Water tigers are reported in Indonesia but they are referred to as "Dogs" for the same reason that you must not mention them by name.

PS: I did go hunting through my storage boxes to find the original source for the New Zealand petroglyphs. They are drawn in charcoal at Ophi, South Canterbury. The absolute size is three feet long for the main bodies of the creatures, approx. six inches for the human figure, which is not measuring the legs (the legs are not indicated for their full length, or else the charcoal has rubbed off). The possible elephant seal and thunderbird are also about a yard long (or rather wingspan for the thunderbird). The elephant seal also seems to have a flipper with fingers, but it is not drawn the same as in the long-necked figures. The male long-necked creature is following the female, nose-end (without any apparent head) near the female's genital region, and has an erection, presumably preparing to mate. They are one after the other and not side by side as in my rearrangement for convenience's sake. Credit is given as The Polynesians: Prehistory of an Island People, Peter Bellwood, Thames and Hudson, 1978, London, p. 140, fig. 92.

PPS: The charcoal drawing is evidently from the inside wall of a rock shelter (cave dwelling) and is from between 1000 and 1500, date assumed because of other similar sites with similar artwork. The observation is also made that the makers were Polynesians and the artistic style is similar to other early Polynesian sites in the Pacific. I say this because the text makes these points adjacent to the figure 92 and not because the text explicitely states the date for that site. So this part is basically going on my inferrence that this was meant to be taken that way.

EDITOR'S NOTE: Dale sent the last two pieces to me, but I thought that they were pertinent and have enclosed them as addenda

1 comment: stormwalkernz [Tony Lucas] said... Dale, I am extremely glad you posted this. It is interesting that the word Taniwha is a very, very generic term. Under this heading comes sea creatures, land creatures and creatures of the air. The large " Thunderbirds" seen in the rock drawings could well be depictions of Harpogornis moorei - Haasts Eagle, which has been proven to have still been around during the time of early colonisation. This massive Eagle was quite capable of taking down a man, and was considered a threat. If this is correct and gives credence to the other creatures drawn as being actual live creatures that the artist saw. 3:52 AM

The posting which sparked this discussion was an earlier blog posting by Lindsay Selby concerning the following piece of Australian aboriginal artwork of a creature called a Yarru and posted on several of the "living Dinosaur" sites. The larger B&W version is from a scientific paper which dismissed it as a "Pseudoplesiosaur" carcass, noting that the stomach contents have been ripped out and are now lying on the ground about the creature (C). These seemingly include fishes, turtles, eels and a sea snake in front. All very reasonable for a Plesiosaur but NOT for a basking shark. And the belly has been opened because there is a human figure inside. This obviously illustrates some aboriginal myth. General feeling at Linsey's blog was that the painting was of modern manufacture but I have seen older examples like it-without, however, the creature looking quite so emphatically Plesiosaurian. However it is in good anatomical agreement with the other examples I cited on my follow-up blog posting.

UPDATE: While researching the latest series of articles on little-known African Cryptids, I came by chance upon a website that collected traditional African designs to be redistributed in artwork such as Rubber stamps. Here is a Mokele-Mbembe design from Dahomey, and it is exactly equivalent to the other possible Plesiosaur designs. This one is not so careful to show the flipper structure but it DOES indicate the vertebrae: there are approx. 20-30 vertebrae each in the neck, body and tail. That is roughly what I had determined from studies of other Longnecks the world over. It should be noted that multiplication of neck vertebrae is a trait that belongs almost exclusively to the Plesiosaurs themselves: placental mammals nearly always have the standard seven cervical vertebrae, including in giraffes.

See Also http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/search/label/plesiosaur#uds-search-results

http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/2010/01/dale-drinnon-on-discosaurus-and.html

Friday, January 08, 2010
DALE DRINNON: On "Discosaurus" and the possibility of Plesiosaurian Survival

Joseph Leidy had written several articles about the earliest finds of Plesiosaurs in North America, and one of them was the disputed 'Discosaurus' in Alabama, possibly originating from the same beds as 'Zueglodons' (Basilosaurus). He was writing in the 1850s and one of the comparable early finds was from the Greensands of New Jersey, thought to have been of Late Cretaceous age. The specimens in this case were named 'Cimoliasaurus'; however, some of them turned out to be cetacean vertebrae of probably Pliocene age, probably some sort of a dolphin.

However, this was some of the vertebrae and not all: Leidy did think the other vertebrae were legitimate and were of that genus, and probably related to that
'Discosaurus'
http://www.oceansofkansas.com/Leidy1865.html

However, it seems that both genus names are invalid. 'Cimoliasaurus' has been described as a 'garbage taxon' and several nondescript fossils from Europe and Australia have also been ascribed to this genus, much in the same way as the early tendency to call all early canivorous dinosaur finds 'Megalosaurus'

http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/220Lepidosauromorpha/220.820.html

In this case the really interesting thing is that the New Jersey fragmentary Plesiosaur is found in association with Pliocene dolphin fossils, mixed up together and only separated out later, and the Alabama fossils Leidy considered probably the same genus are labelled as coming from the Eocene zueglodon beds. In the case of the New Jersey Greensands, there is independant evidence that they are not only Cretaceous but also Tertiary: another site gives a paper in which several genera of O. C. Marsh's 'Cretaceous' birds from the New Jersey Greensands are actually of Eocene date or later.

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Auk/v084n02/p0260-p0262.html

The characteristics of these fossils has placed them tenatively in the same family as Cryptocleidus and Muraenosaurus, and they were thought to have been like the Elasmosaurs but with shorter necks. This is also along the lines of what the surviving Plesiosaurs would have to have been to give rise to our Long-necked Sea-serpents: long-necked, but not excessively long-necked, not so specialised as the extreme Elasmosaurs, and generalised enough to be versatile, possibly enough so that they could pursue other avenues of evolution that became open to them.

That makes a good deal of sense and I am willing to arrange the theory of Plesiosaurian survival on those terms alone.

2 comments:

Dale Drinnon said...
It is important to bear in mind that the name "Discosaurus" was invalid even as that name was given to it, that name had previously been given to something else. So the putative Post-Cretaceous Plesiosaur is officially nameless at this point.6:27 AM

scottmardis said...
There is more on Discosaurus pssibly being from Eocene deposits in the 1981 book "Fossil Vertebrates of Alabama"
I did not see Scott's comment at the time but he is absolutley right and that book was in fact one of my sources.