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Showing posts with label Sturgeons. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Sturgeons. Show all posts

Tuesday, 18 February 2014

Lake Champlain Gar and Sturgeon Sightings


ScottMardis sent in some information regarding the possibility that some sightings at Lake Champlain were due to mistaken views of large fishes. He also mentioned that there were occasional reports of large eels (both at Lake Champlain and also at Lake Memphremagog) but there was independant evidence that conger eels occasionally stray in from the sea.

The initial description of the monster in Lake Champlain was obviously a gar and PURSUIT published this information in the 1980s
  Scott also sent some pages from the book The Untold Story of Champ, A Social History of America's Loch Ness Monster  by Robert E Bartholomew (2012), which included reports that in particular sounded like alligator gars and Atlantic Sturgeons:








In addition to these fish and the seals known to occasionally come into Lake Champlain from the sea,there are also reports of "Giant Water Lizards" and other reports that sound suspiciously like our Master Otter (the Native Americans' Mishipizhiw)


North America does not have any native species of large water lizards, in casual speech the term ordinarly means "Salamander" and in this case we would best understand it as "Giant hellbender". These Giant hellbenders as alleged in the area around Lake Champlain are said to be 2-3 feet long, occasionally reported as much as 6 feet long and possibly even longer by mistake.

Hellbender information http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7160.html  LINK



P denotes reports of "Giant Water Lizards" that can be pink. The one in New Jersey was reported by Ivan T Sanderson. Other reports are further to the South, in the Carolinas We are not concerned with those especially now, what I wanted to bring up for discussion was the area I have circled on the Map (GH). Lake Champlain is in the Eastern part of that circle, but while I was douing research in Sanderson's archives I found some letters and clippings which led me to believe there was a giant salamander or "Giant Water Lizard"along the lines of the Chinese giant salamanders and which were probably related to the pink one Sanderson reported in New Jersey. None of these Eastward reports are ordinary hellbenders although they are said to look just like them. They are larger than the usual hellbenders at 2-3 feet long commonly, sometimes twice that, They also seen to be reported in the adjoining parts of Canada. (Mark A Hall discusses the ones in Ohio and there may be similar ones in the Ozarks but they also do not concern us here)

 Independantly we have good cause to suspect the giant otters or Master Otters in Lake Champlain and surrounding areas: we have some pretty good videos that seem to indicate them. There are also reports in Pennsylvania that clearly name them as Master-otters.  These animals would not be in competition with the salamanders ecologically and they live very different lifestyles

                                  THIS WAS THE 1000th POSTING ON THIS BLOG

Saturday, 27 April 2013

The Sturgeon Species of Champ and Nessie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acipenser_oxyrinchus_oxyrinchus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acipenser

It just so happens that the same species of sturgeon is a candidate to account for sightings of both Champ and the Loch Ness Monster, the New England Sea Serpent of the early 1800s and water monsters along the East Coast such as the Lake Norman Monster and the Altamaha-Ha. It goes without saying that this one kind of fish also cannot possibly account for ALL of the reports in these areas attributed to the local Water Monsters. This is also NOT the same kind of sturgeon that would be involved in sightings in Russia, Siberia, Alaska or Canada.





http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com/2012/08/giant-sturgeon-evidence-at-loch-ness.html

The sturgeon in question this time has a more exaggeratedly elongated snout and a more exaggeratedly toothed back pofile because the individual plates are larger. Record catches of this species are at 14 feet on both sides of the Atlantic. The Beluga or White sturgeon grows MUCH lasrger than this and allegedly as much as twice as long.







Fig. 1. Continental distribution of the European Atlantic sturgeon around 1750–1850. The distinction between the three functional groups of basins is made. Coastal catches reported at the extreme margins of the sturgeon distribution are displayed by black areas. The seven marine provinces are showed on the map following a grey scale. The Nile basin (Egypt) was truncated to offer better visualization of smaller features onto the map. Numbers refer to Supplementary information on spawning basins given in Table 1. The transitory basins – in alphabetical order – are: Arno, Bann, Barrow, Blackwater (Ireland, county Waterford), Bresle, Clyde (Scotland), Daugava, Dee (North West England), Dives, Eden (Scotland), Evros, Forth (Scotland), Foyle, Gota alv, Great Ouse, Guden, Jucar, Kemijoki, Lima, Loire, Mersey, Meuse, Minho, Neretva, Ombrone, Piave, Scheldt, Severn, Slaney, Somme, Struma, Tagliamento, Tagus, Tay, Thames, Torn alv, Towy, Trent (England), Tweed (Scotland), Tyne, Vjose, Vire, Volturno, Wye (Wales). If different rivers with the same name exist, country and county are given.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320710002740
According to Adrian Shine the Loch Ness Monster Sturgeon is supposed to be the same species as the Baltic Sea type, This is the same species as the Atlantic sturgeon but wound up in a cul-de-sac by the expansion of the rival sturgeon species A. sturio.

Different populations inhabit areas North and South of this
 
 
Florida sturgeon leaping. This one came crashing into a woman on a boat
and broke her leg with the force News Story Here
 
Very large sturgeon washed ashore in Florida by a storm. Still an internet sensation.


Atlantic Sturgeon carcass washed up in St Lawrence River
 

 
 
                                                           SOS--Save Our Sturgeons!

http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com/2012/04/massachussets-bay-sturgeon-1819-and-mr.html

Friday, 17 August 2012

REPOST_CFZ Canada on Canadian Water Monsters

Tuesday, 20 December 2011

Introduction-Canadian Water Monsters

CFZ Canada welcomes guest blogger Dale Drinnon. I'm sure you will enjoy his offerings! Thanks so much, Dale, for your support. ~Robin

CFZ Canada had put up an article earlier this year in which it was stated that Plesiosaur fossils had been found in the deposits left behind by Glacial Lake Agassiz. This would be unusual for several reasons, not the least of which would be that the lake would be pretty much perpetual icewater. I had also discovered something about Lake Monsters in North America during my studies of the reports, most of which I shall explain later in this article. But for this matter I should say that Lake Agassiz was an extremely transitory body in Geologic time: it was not in any one place for long and it did not last a for a long time all told. Its position was continually shifting northward with the retreat of the continental ice sheet, and the total thickness of accumulated deposit was not much. Therefore it is quite possible to have aquatic deposits laid down in the same geographic area (or part of it) but at a different (probably older) time. And so this is what I expect was the case of the Plesiosaur fossils in this area, probably coming from an older time and a much warmer climate (I would be quite happy to admit the opposite to be true should any good evidence show up to confirm the idea that the Plesiosaur fossils were actually contemporary with Lake Agassiz and Final-Pleistocene in date.)

Now the other matter was something which does not become apparent in reading the usual accounts of Water Monsters in North America, but the fact is that The Longnecked animals are almost always reported at the far East and West of the continent and almost always not very far inland from the sea. And this also seems true of the genuinely large eel-like animals. Long-necked or Periscope reports are almost never from the deep interior of the continent and they are therefore suspicious when they DO appear there.
I include two pieces of Native art to demonstrate the idea: the first one is a Longnecked Seaserpent "Totempole" from the far South of Alaska (and hence in the same cultural area as the adjoining part of British Columbia, including prime "Cadborosaurus" viewing area) and the other a Mikmac Petroglyph from the East Coast area of a maned longnecked animal with its neck down in usual swimming conformation.(below) That petroglyph looks pretty authentic to me and it compares well with White witnesses' sketches for similar types of Seaserpent sightinngs. So personally I think that is probably a "Sketch from life" by an actual witness, or not done long after an actual sighting in any event. It is also c;lose to other petroglyphs on the West coast. The "Totem Pole" is comparable in size and shape to a Viking ship's figurehead, but I suspect that the head is made larger than the actual animls' would be in real life. However it is entirely possible it is intended to show the "Periscope" at life size.
 

 

Now the conception of a Water Monster that held over the interior of most of North America for most of the time was that of a creature called "The Great Horned Serpent". This category probably included more than one original species but often the "Serpent" would be shown with four short legs and the usual representation woul;d be then a "Water Panther", Piasa or "Mishipizhiw" (Piasa turns out to be only an alternative form for Mishipizhiw= Water Panther) And I recently discovered that such "Fearsome Critters" as the Wisconsin Hodag are actually little more than the White Man's borrowing of the same creature. As far as living creatures (Cryptids) go, there are some large Lizard-shaped animals that are identified as "Water Panthers" but the original category was an amalgam to start with. For that reason it is not too unusual if the identity had been tagged on to giant Otters in the north and also Giant spinybacked Iguana lizards in the warmer climes. However, it seems that there is another reason why the special features of such representations are insisted upon.

The Sioux Water Monster Unktehila as depicted by Jonathan Carver in 1766-7 seems plausibly drawn from the fossil remains of a Diplodocus topped off by the hurned round head of a Triceratops. And perhaps it actually is meant to be a sort of Paleontological reconstruction. The composite image seems to have been strong enough to capture the imagination of the Native Continent: "THIS is what a Water Monster looks like"

To quote some similar words from a recent (Dec 2005) National Geographic site:

 
Unktehila, Monsters in Native AmericaIn a small auditorium at Mount Rushmore National Memorial in the Black Hills of South Dakota, Kevin Locke, a Lakota Sioux storyteller from Standing Rock Reservation, gently strokes a braided strand of sweetgrass. Its power will help him bring forth good thoughts and feelings. Then he grips his ceremonial rattle, closes his eyes, and, as an attentive audience of Lakota Sioux children and visiting Boy Scouts listens, he sings a Lakota prayer used at the springtime Thunder Feast.

“Leciya tuwa makipanpelo. Wiyohpeyata Wakinyan Oyate kola makipanpelo.”

The words rise and fall to the sound of Locke’s rattle, and he gives it an extra flourish at the end, signaling the close.

“We sing this to welcome the Thunder Nation,” Locke explains, referring to thunderstorms. “Maybe some of you have heard the word Wakinyan before and know its meaning?”

One slender Lakota boy raises his hand. “It’s the name of our cat—he’s orange like a Thunder Being.”

Locke smiles broadly. “Good, good. That’s right, Wakinyan are the Thunder Beings, forces with power, like the Thunder Birds. They come with the big cumulus clouds in the spring to the prairies. The Wakinyan bring the rain, hail, thunder, and lightning—all the things that renew life after the winter. But in the long ago days, before humans, the Wakinyan also used these things in a big battle. And that battle was with the evil water monsters, the Unktehila.”

There were many different kinds of Unktehila, Locke continues, but most were like huge reptiles with scaly skin and horns; some were like giant lizards, and others were like serpents; some slithered on their bellies, and some had feet. “They ate each other and every other living thing, and so the Thunder Beings were given a divine mission to kill the Unktehila. That’s when the Thunder Birds came with their thunder and lightning. They struck the water monsters with lightning bolts and boiled their lakes and streams until they dried up. After that most of the Unktehila died or were very diminished in size, so that all we have left today are some small snakes and lizards. But we know the giant Unktehila lived because our people found their bones in the Badlands and along the Missouri River.”

Indeed, long before paleontologists arrived to excavate the fossils of marine reptiles, Native American peoples were carrying away enormous bones that lay exposed on the surface. For the Lakota, Cheyenne, and Kiowa (as well as many other tribes), the bones held special powers and could be used for healing or other rituals. And, as Locke explained, the bones were also “the physical manifestation of the evil forces the Unktehila represented.”

Although Locke had learned about the Unktehila from his elders and had sung the prayers of the Thunder Feast many times, he’d never seen the kinds of fossils that likely inspired the stories. So we went to the Museum of Geology at the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology in Rapid City, where skeletons of a plesiosaur and mosasaur are on display. These and other marine reptiles had lived in the ocean that covered much of North America about 75 million years ago.

“Wow,” he said, nodding appreciatively at the long-necked, fat-bodied plesiosaur. But it was the massive-jawed mosasaur that held his attention. “Now this one,” he said, pausing to size up the 29-foot-long snaky animal, with its fierce array of teeth and double-hinged lower jaw joint that allowed it to swallow large kinds of prey (including other mosasaurs). “This one is an eating machine. If our people found one of these, I’m sure they would call it Unktehila.”

And, Locke added, mosasaur-like creatures with toothy jaws and horns were often painted on the tepee covers of the Kiowa, Cheyenne, and Blackfeet. Some Native Americans had carved images of such creatures into the rocks above the Missouri River, and others had made one out of stones along the river’s banks. “Everyone who sees these knows they’re Unktehila.”

Paleontologists often find bones of pterosaurs, flying reptiles, along with the mosasaurs. Adrienne Mayor, a folklorist, suggests that pterosaur and mosasaur remains may indeed have triggered the stories of the Thunder Birds and their battle with the water monsters.

Do the Lakota, like the people who wait for Nessie to surface, regard the Unktehila as still existing? Locke hesitated. “Well, the old Unktehila were killed by the Thunder Birds. That’s what our stories say. Some people still fear large bodies of water, and they’ll say prayers to protect themselves from Unktehila when crossing the Missouri River.”

But, he went on, the power of the Unktehila lies more in what they symbolize than in any hard reality. “They were a negative force and had to be destroyed. That’s what the Thunder Birds did for the world. And that’s why it’s important for us to keep these stories alive. Because there are still negative forces—many that are even more powerful than water monsters—in the world today. We have to fight against things like alcohol and depression and materialism. These are the new Unktehila. We can fight them with our songs and music.”

And that’s why Kevin Locke sings about sea monsters for the children: To remind them of their heritage and to tell them about the ancient battle fought to bring goodness into the world.

In a way they are right because we do actually still have reports of Sea Monsters that are described like Plesiosaurs or Mosasaurs. But the Water Monsters described as having full sets of antlers like deer and moose are much more likely to be inspired by sightings of swimming deer and moose, with their long wakes giving the illusion of an elongated body swimming in the water with a "Serpentine" motion. On the other hand I have some different concept art for Unktehila and it seems to be drawn from motre recent reports. It is a large fish=shaped creature with a series of knobs on the backbone and those knobs give it away: the head os roughly correct but the mouth and jaws are wong, and the vertically-flattened swimming tail is also about correct but lacks the "Forked" effect of having two lobes. In other words, the clearly seen parts of the fish are obviously representing some kind of a large sturgeon, while the filled-in underwater features are less identifiable because they are less accurate representations.



And the drawing of the "Cadborosaurus" from The Paranormal Haze article Monsters of Canada-
Is a much better representation for the "Ogopogo" sightings that are more sturgeon-like. I have consequently renamed that illustration as "Ogopogo"





"Champ 1999"
It seems that the dominant type of large water Cryptid from the midsection of the continent-From "Ogopogo" territory up to including the Great Lakes, at least, and at least as far as Hudson's Bay to the North, seems to be a large sturgeon of some sort, and in those areas "Periscopes" are rarely reported. When they ARE reported, they are usually in the range of 3-5 feet long/high and are most often reports of swimming moose. Toward the East and West coasts themselves, there are reports of the Plesiosaur and Giant Eel types. In such places as Lake Champlain and other lakes in that area, the usual visual impression of the monster is something like a Plesiosaurus of a "Brontosaurus" and that has stood up as being true for the largest part of the 20th century. On the other hand, there is also much overlap so that dominantly in older days, and continuing on into the present, you are still ALSO getting reports of swimming moose or deer, and then a minority of reports of seals and other mistakes.



Dale Drinnon joined the SITU back in the days when Ivan Sanderson was still alive, and they exchanged some letters: at the time of Sanderson's death he was allowed to go through Ivan Sanderson's files pretty extensively. Dale has run exhaustive statistical analyses on Water Monster reports back in the 1970s, including this data, as well as some referesher studies of the data more recently. Unfortunately the bulk of Dale's material remains unpublished and remains controversial in that it strongly bucks the trend set by other Cryptozoologists and proposes new models for Freshwater types when traditionally the WaterMonsters have been treated as if they were all the same sort of thing (For examples see Peter Costello, In Search of Lake Monsters, on up to George Eberhart, Mysterious Creatures, 2002)

Friday, 3 August 2012

Latest Loch Ness Monster Photo

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183094/Is-real-Nessie-Skipper-claims-snapped-best-picture-Loch-Ness-Monster-proves-underwater-beast-exists.html

Is this the real Loch Ness Monster? Boat skipper claims to have snapped 'best ever' picture which 'proves fabled beast exists'

  • George Edwards has hunted Nessie for 26 years and holds tours of the Loch
  • He even says image was verified by team of US military monster experts
  • A Nessie sighting specialist has backed his claims, adding: 'It proves Nessie is definitely NOT a sturgeon'
By Matt Blake
|


As George Edwards peered into the thick mist that covered Loch Ness with an eery silence, he glimpsed a dark hump slinking in and out of the still waters.
Was this the bashful beast he had hunted every day for 26 years and has outfoxed scores of investigators before him?
He steered his boat, Nessie Hunter, towards the mysterious form - without a thought for his own safety - to take a photograph before it vanished back into the deep.
He now claims the picture is the best ever taken of the Loch Ness Monster and - most importantly - proves once and for all that the elusive leviathan is definitely NOT a sturgeon.
Is that you Nessie? George Edwards claims this is the bashful beast he has hunted every day for the last 26 years?
Is that you Nessie? George Edwards claims this is the bashful beast he has hunted every day for the last 26 years?
Unequivocal? George steered his boat - Nessie Hunter - towards the mysterious form without a thought for his own safety to take a photograph before it vanished back into the deep
The monster hunter: George spends his life on the loch - around 60 hours a week - taking tourists out on his boat Nessie Hunter IV, and has led numerous Nessie hunts over the years
'Unequivocal': George, left, says he has even had the picture, right, independently verified by a team of US military monster experts as well as a Nessie sighting specialist
He says he has even had it independently verified by a team of US military monster experts as well as a Nessie sighting specialist.

George spends his life on the loch - around 60 hours a week - taking tourists out on his boat Nessie Hunter IV, and has led numerous Nessie hunts over the years.
'I was just about to return to Temple Pier (in Drumnadrochit) and I went to the back of the boat which was facing the pier and that’s when I saw it,' said 60-year-old Mr Edwards, a lifelong believer in the monster.

IF NOT A MONSTER, THEN WHAT?

The sturgeon can grow up to 12 feet
Sturgeon
The Loch Ness Monster has been the subject of many sightings in the Scottish Highlands.
Some experts believe that the beast represents a line of long-surviving plesiosaurs, a type of carnivorous aquatic reptile from millions of years ago.
Nessie is similar to other supposed lake monsters in Scotland and elsewhere, though its description varies from one account to the next.
There have been hundreds of supposed sightings over the years. Most, however, have been dismissed as hoax or fantasy.
One of the most accepted explanations is that the monster is in fact a giant sturgeon (pictured), which can grow up to 12 feet long.
Others include eels, bird wakes, seals, trees, logs, submarines, dogs with sticks - even an elephant.
'It was slowly moving up the loch towards Urquhart Castle and it was a dark grey colour. It was quite a fair way from the boat, probably about half a mile away but it’s difficult to tell in water.'
After watching the object for five to ten minutes, Mr Edwards said it slowly sank below the surface and never resurfaced.
'I’m convinced I was seeing Nessie as I believe in these creatures. Far too many people have being seeing them for far too long,' he said.
'The first recorded sighting was in 565AD and there have been thousands of eye witness reports since then.
'All these people can’t be telling lies. And the fact the reports stretch over so many years mean there can’t just be one of them. I’m convinced there are several monsters.'
Steve Feltham, who has dedicated the past 21 years to hunting for Nessie was unequivocval. 'It is the best photograph I think I have ever seen,' he said.
From his base on Dores beach and has studied many Nessie sighting photographs.
'I think the images are fantastic - that’s the animal I have been looking for all this time,' he said yesterday.
'I would say it doesn’t prove what Nessie is, but it does prove what Nessie isn’t, a sturgeon which is a fish that has been put forward as one of the main explanations as to what Nessie could be but this hasn’t got a serrated spine like the sturgeon.
Mr Edwards attempted to use his vessel’s sonar to make a contact but to no avail.
Bashful beast: George said the monster was slowly moving up the loch towards Urquhart Castle (pictured)
Bashful beast: George said the monster was slowly moving up the loch towards Urquhart Castle (pictured)
Steve Feltham, who has dedicated the past 21 years to hunting for Nessie was unequivocval. 'It is the best photograph I think I have ever seen,' he said.
Steve Feltham, who has dedicated the past 21 years to hunting for Nessie was unequivocval. 'It is the best photograph I think I have ever seen,' he said.
Steve Feltham (left), who has dedicated the past 21 years to hunting for Nessie said the picture is the 'best I think I have ever seen'. Left, George Edwards' boat, Nessie Hunter
'I hung around for a good half-an-hour and used the deep scanning sonar to try and pick it up, but I’m afraid I had no luck at all.'
Mr Edwards took the photo at 9am on 2nd November last year on a compact Samsung digital camera that he always keeps on the boat.
Before releasing it publicly he sent it to the USA for analysis, though he can’t reveal further details.
'I did not want to mention my sighting until I was sure that I had not photographed a log or something inanimate in the water,' he said. 'I have friends in the USA who have friends in the military.
'They had my photo analysed and they have no doubt that I photographed an animate object in the water. I was really excited as I am sure that some strange creatures are lurking in the depths of Loch Ness.'

LOCH NESS MONSTER: 80 YEARS OF SIGHTINGS

Famous: Perhaps the most famous picture of Nessie was taken by Robert Kenneth Wilson, a London gynaecologist, it was published in the Daily Mail on 21 April 1934
The Loch Ness Monster has been a subject of mass intrigue and debate since it came to the world's attention in 1933.
Scientists have widely written off the idea as a modern-day myth and continued sightings as set ups and wishful thinking.
Yet it has remained a contested phenomenon for almost 80 years.
Perhaps the most famous picture of Nessie was taken by Robert Kenneth Wilson, a London gynaecologist (pictured left). It was published in the Daily Mail on 21 April 1934.
The picture showed what looked like a long neck and head rising from the water.
However, it turned out to be a toy submarine bought from Woolworths with a head and neck made of wood in an elabourate hoax by big-game hunter Marmaduke Wetherell in an act of revenge on the newspaper that had ridiculed him over his hapless search for the beast.
The earliest report of a monster in the vicinity of Loch Ness appears in the Life of St Columba by Adomnán, written in the 7th century.
St Columba, an Irish monk, had sent a disciple into the loch to prove there was nothing there. But the monster rose and chased the man snapping at his heels.
But it fled in terror 'as if pulled back by ropes' when St Columba made the sign of the cross and commanded: 'Go no further. Do not touch the man. Go back at once.'
The great faker: Marmaduke Wetherell (seated) is pictured studying a chart of the Loch Ness in their search for the Loch Ness Monster. He was said to have faked the most famous picture in revenge for bad publicity
The great faker: Marmaduke Wetherell (seated) is pictured studying a chart of the Loch Ness in their search for the Loch Ness Monster. He was said to have faked the most famous picture in revenge for bad publicity
In November 1933, Hugh Gray was the first to picture something splashing in the water.
Four stumpy-looking objects on the bottom of the creature's body appeared to look like appendages, such as flippers. It was later suggested the creature was a dog, possibly holding a stick.
In 1938, G. E. Taylor, a South African tourist, filmed something in the loch for three minutes on 16 mm colour film.
His picture was declared 'positive evidence' by a famous biologist and cryptozoologist.
In 1960, aeronautical engineer Tim Dinsdale filmed a hump crossing the water leaving a powerful wake.

Dinsdale allegedly spotted the animal on his last day hunting for it, and described the object as reddish with a blotch on its side.
In May 2007, Gordon Holmes, a 55-year-old lab technician, captured video of what he said was 'this jet black thing, about 45 feet long, moving fairly fast in the water'.
The film, though, has been cast into doubt. Holmes has been criticised for claiming the existence of fairies. Another expert later claimed the film actually shows otters swimming in the loch.
Questions: This exciting new image of has revived belief that there's something unexplained out there
Questions: This is the sonar image that revived belief that there's something unexplained out there, taken by skipper Marcus Atkinson in February
In February 2012, a sonar image of a large mystery object deep below the surface of Loch Ness netted boat skipper Marcus Atkinson the Best Nessie Sighting of The Year Award - the first time in several years it has been presented by bookmaker William Hill.
The sonar picture, that shows a large unidentified living object deep underwater, was recorded by Loch Ness boat skipper Marcus Atkinson.
Mr Atkinson’s sonar fish-finder device records the width of objects in the depths directly below his tourist boat every quarter of a second.

[Frankly the thing on the surface still looks like a fish to me: a fish should not float so high out of the water, though-DD]

Wednesday, 1 August 2012

Giant Sturgeon Evidence at Loch Ness

Scott Mardis (a friend and co-worker of mine) recently posted a comparison between "Nessie" as seen and sketched by Alastair Dallas in 1936 and a spawning sturgeon on rocks. There was a problem over the reproduction rights to the sketch that the witness had used and therefore Scott suggested that I use an alternative drawing instead. this is the later version of the drawing via Mike Dash:



Scott Mardis made some remarks about this comparison:

Scott Mardis As far as anyone can confirm, there are no sturgeon in Loch Ness.Adrian Shine has theorized that it's possible that an occasional Baltic sturgeon may blunder into Loch Ness for a time and then go out again, leaving a slew of "Nessie " sightings in it's wake.Large ocean sturgeon have been caught in the Moray Firth, which is adjacent to Loch Ness.Seals can get in and out of Loch Ness despite the canal system, so maybe it's possible a sturgeon could get in and out, as well.Big sturgeons can leap over boats.Perhaps they can jump canal walls.The Alastair Dallas " Nessie" is so different from the Plesiosaur-like Nessie sightings that maybe something atypical was seen.Sturgeons don't spawn in Loch Ness, but perhaps an abberant individual might go on to rocks to either scratch it's belly to remove parasites or feed on fish roe attached to rocks.




Scott Mardis http://www.glaucus.org.uk/Sturgen2.htm

BMLSS Fish information page: Atlantic Sturgeon
[The type of sturgeon which would be the most likely one to appear at Loch Ness-DD]
In reply to this, Darren Naish replied in a Cryptozoological forum:

Darren Naish Here is the comment I sent Scott yesterday on the Dallas issue... Dallas's very detailed account - he claimed to watch the monster for some time (enough time for him to and get his drawing pad and draw it from life), and from c. 100 ft away - referred to a bristly mane, three dorsal fins, 'sensory horns' on the head, wattles, round eyes. It was 32 ft long, was sucking weed off rock. What I'm getting at is... there's so much detail here that it either (1) describes a wholly new species of big vertebrate, or (2) is a hoax. It doesn't seem reasonable to me to reinterpret it as an inaccurate account of a seal, sturgeon, or any real animal. Dallas was known for being a teller of tall tales.

  • Dale Drinnon It seemed like a reasonable enough depiction of a sturgeon at the first posting, but I was uneasy about certain aspects of the report and especially that the sighting was supposedly in 1936 but this was the first I had heard of it; with Darren's clarification in the last message, I'm willing to write it off as a hoax. It COULD have been a stray sturgeon, but presumably the witness would have to be describing it badly and doubling the dimensions to make that explanation sound likely.


  • Darren Naish I've been planning to cover the Dallas 'sighting' at Tet Zoo for some time, partly because I love monster accounts that include a lot of anatomical detail :) But I haven't because Alastair Dallas junior (son of the A. Dallas who created the pic) has only ever given permission for use of the pic to Dick Raynor - not to anyone else. And I would need to procure permission before using it on my blog. Mike Dash showed the pics at Weird Weekend a few years ago, but I still need to be careful. Mike in fact has done an extraordinary amount of research on Dallas and his connection with the (in)famous McRae film. Dick Raynor discusses both cases here: http://www.lochnessinvestigation.org/McRae.htm



    www.lochnessinvestigation.org
    This is of necessity a story without an ending. The beginning is shrouded in m...
    ystery, and the middle is confused. This is not even the definitive version of it, as new, or old, material may yet come to light. It is not an area of research where I expend much effort, but as I may have a contribution...
    [After which there is an extended discussion between Dale and Scott]
    Scott Mardis http://www.lochnessproject.org/adrian_shine_archiveroom/papershtml/loch_ness_surgeon_sturgeon.htm

    www.lochnessproject.org
    Loch Ness Research with Adrian Shine, the Loch Ness Project reference site for ...
    general scientific information concerning the exploration of Loch Ness and investigation into the Loch Ness Monster Controversy edited by Adrian Shine.

    Dale Drinnon OK, I am satisfied as to the reconciliation of the dates now: only there seems to have been a general confusion over the description Dallas was giving about the supposed film and his own supposed sighting: several details seem to have crossed over from the one and to the other including the "Bristly Mane" (Not really in evidence in the sketch and supposedly a feature of the film)
    ·

  • Scott Mardis My understanding is that Dallas' sighting is a totally different event from the alleged film, only that Dallas was supposedly a custodian of the McCrae film.

  • Scott Mardis What a mess, eh? Makes you want to run screaming from the room!

  • Dale Drinnon Yes my understanding is that there are two different things, the film and the sighting BUT the description which Darren quoted above confounds the two. Maybe that was Dallas' fault. maybe the interview was not so clear as it should have been...at any rate I'm focusing on the obvious similarity of the artwork to a sturgeon and calling it a sturgeon (Your original presentation here) and worrying about the contradictory elements later, if it becomes necessary to do so.

  • Darren Naish Hi all - I don't have time to discuss the interesting/complicated links between the McRae and Dallas stuff... if you have time, answers are here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IAKpNKhiRo [The video is included below]
    Dale Drinnon It is my impression that Dallas originally mis-remembered and misreported both versions in an original composite report. the substance of which is now lost but which Holiday collected and passed along, compounding the problem with (it seems) his own mistake stating there had been two films involved. After which, at a later interval, Loch Ness Investigation people contacted Dallas and he said "No, what Holiday said was a mistake..." and retold the story again, only probably adding some more to the confusion while trying to correct the garbled text, but only garbling things further, perhaps because he was misunderstood by interviewers once again but also more probably because his memory was confused once again.
  • Dale Drinnon Basically, none of that matters. There may well have been a film of a Scottish sea serpent locked away in a vault at one point, but it was possibly a kind of a pinniped since Dick Raynor noted seal-like features in the description. I'm OK with that. Dallas seems to have seen a large sturgeon in Loch Ness in the 1930s, that's what seems to be the important thing we can investigate here, and the sketches show some interesting features including what look to be hallmarks of sturgeon anatomy in roughlty the proper relative placement on the upper surface, and I'm working on comparison views to show that part now. This seems interesting and the specific anatomical correspondance is good-but it is considerably less so for the ventral surface which was presumably not witnessed as accurately. On the whole the earlier sketch would seem to be the more misleading one with more inaccuracies, the 1974 rougher sketch seems a better impression. The more elaborate sketch also dates from 1974 and is an art object alleging that it shows the original sketch, and supposedly reproduces a 1936 drawing as a lithograph. There are a couple of questions as to its accuracy which arise from that circumstance also

    Dick Raynor's Loch Ness Investigations page mentions the version of the drawing dated 1936 in connection to the alleged films taken by Dr. MacRae in the 1930s and reported by F. W. Ted Holiday in his book The Great Orm of Loch Ness. [All the italicised print is copyrighted by Dick Raynor in 1980 and renewed 2000: I am deliberately NOT quoting the more sensitive material on the page]

    The main players are a Dr McRae, who had worked in London but retired to the Highlands of Scotland, and the Kirkcudbright landscape artist Alastair Dallas. It would appear from the story that the the doctor had a practical interest in cinematography. Mr Dallas was a widely travelled landscape artist with a wide circle of friends. After the "new" road along the north-west shore of Loch Ness had been completed he contacted the main contractors, Carmichaels, with a view to a commission to record the works. Unfortunately, the commission had already been awarded, but due to the original artists preference for sweeping curves over straight lines, Mr Dallas was later invited to the contractors offices and given the commission by the proud builder of the straight roads. It was during this commissioned work that the sketch is believed to have been made. Mr Dallas the artist died in 1983, but I am indebted to his family for the background information given here. One interesting point made was that Alastair Dallas invariably carried a camera, and field glasses, to help him in his work, and the question naturally arises, - " If he had time to make the sketches, why didn't he just take a photograph?" As a professional photographer I know only too well that one does not always carry the entire contents of one's tool-kit... One carries what one expects to need. As a landscape artist, a telephoto lens may not have been an essential item.
    Alastair Dallas

    .... Following my [Dick Raynor's] meeting and interview with him on behalf of the continuing investigation, a friend visited Alastair Dallas and was told a rather different story. In this version there was only one film by Dr McRae, but Mr Dallas himself had had a sighting, and had made some sketches. A copy of this drawing was given to the friend, who passed it on to me in October 1975. As attempts to pursue the alleged film failed, it might be useful to study the sketch. In comparing the detail of the "Loch Ness Monster" to photographs of sturgeons I found a number of points of correspondance which however were not as strong of a presentation as they could have been because I was lacking some of the necessary exactly equivalent views. The front-on view in particular, and yet that is one of the more obviously fishlike drawingsscrepancy between the front-on and profile views in that the profile shows the sucking mouth at the end of the snout whereas the head-on view seens to show some bit of snout projecting in front of the mouth, with the sucking mouth recessed underneath. Since outstanding disparity in the comparison of the profile to a sturgeon, the profile view is probably mistaken on this point. The head-on view indicates two "Sinuses" in front of the mouth but undreneath the head and the underside view of the sturgeon does also show that. The eyes were said to be shut; more than likely they were "Cloudy" fish-eyes and hard to make out for that reason. Their placement on the sides of the head seems to be near enough true for the sturgeon. ectoral fins hang down directly behind the head, where they should be positioned.In the profile view of a spiracle high up at the back of the head, a dent in front of the eye and a more obvious nostril positioned anteriorly to that, all of which correspond to the openings on a sturgeon's face. The rounded "Jowl" represents the gill-cover and confirms that we are indeed dealing with a type of a fish here. Thead is anguklar enough that it is reasonable to expect it is armoured there, and there is a higher medial ridge shown which corresponds to the central line of scutes on a sturgeon's back. It would appear that the back fins are roughly correct but that the pectoral fins are represented twice, in two different positions: perhaps the witness was confused by the part of the body lying awash and just possibly he had a brief view of the pelvic fins: he said the creature had "no rear fins" And it seems important that Dallas drew an unequal divided vertical twofinned fishtail only there were times when he drew it lying sideways instead of standing up vertically: having a vertical two-lobed fishtail where the top lobe is much longer than the bottom one is diagnostic of a sturgeon.



    Atlantic Sturgeon, record maximum approx 14 feet in both Europe and in North America

    Vertically-leaping sturgeon, known to be mistaken for a "Periscope" sighting on ocasion,
     Very large sturgeons can leap up to 10 to 15 feet high "Periscopes" according to some reports

    Dead Atlantic Sturgeon, found recently in Manhattan, NYC.


    lnplnp logo

    Postscript: Surgeon or Sturgeon?

    Loch Ness and Morar Project

    It would be churlish, in view of all the recent additional information, to allow the sixtieth anniversary of the naming of the Loch Ness 'Monster' (Anon., 1933 - attributed to Mr. Alex Campbell)to pass entirely unremarked.For most people, certainly the majority of the casually interested members of the general public, the famous 'Surgeon's Photograph' of 1934 probably represents their idea of the archetypal Monster.Certainly this well-known photograph has figured in numerous publications over the past sixty-odd years, and a serious investigation and assessment of the photograph was published in the centenary (1988) volume of the Scottish Naturalist (LeBlond and Collins, 1988).

    Acoustic Assessment of Fish Size

    One consequence of the introduction of more quantifying acoustic techniques - in situ target strength measurement in particular , was the discovery that the great majority of pelagic fish in Loch Ness belonged to a very small size group, which were not caught prior to the trawling methods recently described (Shine, Martin and Marjoram, 1993).Therefore there was a tendency to 'scale' large sonar echoes against gill-netted individuals of 20-30 cm, which in reality represented only a small proportion of the population.This imposes a further revision upon assessment of sonar contacts which are strong in relation to the surrounding fish echoes.

    Estimates of 'Monster' Population

    Sheldon and Kerr (1972) first attempted estimations of theoretical 'Monster' population density based on fish biomass.They used the morphoedaphic index (total dissolved solids/mean depth), devised by Ryder (1965), to estimate the fish population.Lacking genuine Loch Ness information, however, data was used from the northern basin of Loch Lomond.For Loch Ness, a fish standing stock of between 0.55 and 2.75 kg/ha was calculated, or between 3.135 and 15.675 tonnes in total.
    On-site acoustic estimates of resident pelagic fish in Loch Ness now range from 3.1 kg/ha (Shine, Martin and Marjoram, 1993) to 4.23 kg/ha (Kubecka, Duncan and Butterworth, 1993), or between 17 and 24 tonnes in total, as compared to 300

    Vol 105, The Scottish Naturalist: Postscript: Surgeon or Sturgeon? p272

    to 400 kg/ha in the upper River Thames (current acoustic estimate - Dr. J. Kubecka, pers. comm.).These estimates exceed those of Sheldon and Kerr, and may be accounted for by allochthonous organic inputs.Before hopes are raised too high, however, it should be borne in mind that predators upon this biomass should not amount to more than approximately a tenth of the gross weight. Thus we have available a total of approximately two tonnes of 'Monster', but this two tonnes may not be as great as it at first seems.For example, it would be equivalent to scarcely half the weight of a 36-ft (13 m) Whale Shark Rhinocodon typus. In fact, two tonnes divided into an absolute minimum viable population of, say, ten creatures, would give an individual weight of only 200 kg.

    In fish terms this could be equivalent to a Sturgeon Acipenser sturio 2.8 m in length (Maitland and Campbell, 1992: 92).The above pelagic biomass estimates are somewhat academic since they do not include migratory Salmon Salmo salar or Sea Trout Salmo trutta, which may swim too close to the surface or too close inshore to be surveyed efficiently by acoustics.For the same reason the littoral fish habitat, which is richer than the pelagic, is not included since some of the fish, and all benthic fish e.g. Eels Anguilla anguilla, would be too close to the bottom to be detected.Nevertheless, it is now scarcely possible to argue a case for a population of resident 'Monster' predators.

    Fish the Most Likely Candidates
    After dismissing the classic Monster photographs, Shine and Martin (1988) concluded that if, among the many recorded explanations for sighting reports, large unusual creatures were indeed involved, then fish would be the most likely candidates.This was based upon the facts that Loch Ness, as a proven refuge for cold-water Ice Age relict species, was one of the last places on earth likely to be favoured by reptiles, Jurassic or otherwise.Since there are no known marine amphibia, these could not, like almost all the other vertebrate inhabitants of the loch, have made their way up the river from the sea.Finally, any mammals should long ago have advertised their presence while breathing.

    The largest aquatic animal to have been recognised in Loch Ness is the Common Seal Phoca vitulina (Williamson, 1988), some of which occasionally enter the loch, presumably in pursuit of migrating Salmon, and could have caused some sighting reports.Salmon, the largest recorded fish in the loch, migrate inland to spawn but do not feed in fresh-water, and this habit may perhaps provide a clue to another, much larger, possible candidate which could have contributed to the Loch Ness controversy.
    Vol 105, The Scottish Naturalist: Postscript: Surgeon or Sturgeon? p273

    Resident Predators
    A problem with a theoretical population of hitherto unrecorded predatory fish is that fish reproduction, whether by egg-laying or live-bearing, gives rise to relatively large numbers of small juveniles developing independent of parental care.It seems unlikely that these would have avoided capture by fishing over the years, either by towed lure or from the beach.They would also have had to evade the netting and trawling programmes described in Shine, Kubecka, Martin and Duncan (1993), let alone decades of illicit Salmon netting.

    It is not inconceivable, however, that along with the Salmon and the Common Seal, Loch Ness might have played host to another visitor.

    A Sturgeon?
    The possibility of the afore-mentioned Sturgeon actually being responsible for the beginnings of the tradition, and for some sighting reports since then, is quite attractive.Sturgeons would not necessarily be immediately recognised as fish.They are very large, have a long upturned snout, and a dorsal fin set well back towards the tail (Figure 1a, 2K) (Gould, 1934: 136).

    In 1987 a Sturgeon, eleven feet (3.35 m) long and weighing 900 lbs (408 kg) was found dead, floating in Lake Washington near Seattle, U.S.A., where stories of a 'Monster' had circulated (Albuquerque Journal, 7th November 1987).No-one would suggest, however, that Sturgeons would even begin to enter the reckoning, against the huge multi-humped manifestations of the 1930s ascribed by Baker (Observer, 26th August 1962), to boat wakes, or to many other reports.There is no one answer to the question of the Loch Ness Monster.

    Sturgeons are cold-water northern hemisphere fish of very large size (up to >3.0 m) and of unusual appearance.They would be independent of the food resources, since, before entering the loch in order to spawn, they would cease feeding.Moreover, since Sturgeons are such rare visitors to British rivers, any which did succeed in passing the two weirs on the River Ness would be very unlikely to find mates.After a lonely vigil off one of the river mouths they would presumably leave again without issue, save, perhaps, for some interesting sighting reports.

    Vol 105, The Scottish Naturalist: Postscript: Surgeon or Sturgeon? p275

    Gould's Early Investigations
    In November 1933 Lt.-Commander R.T. Gould (1934: 30) listened to the account of Mr. John McLeod, who, some 20-30 years previously had seen, at the mouth of the River Moriston beneath the lowest fall, a creature with a "head like an eel and a long tapering tail".This is how a Sturgeon might appear from above.Another witness, Miss K. MacDonald, spoke of a "crocodile"-like creature, 6-8 feet long, ascending the River Ness and heading for the Holm Mills weir, in February 1932 (Gould, 1943: 38).Rather more recently, in 1993, Mrs Marion MacDonald described to the author an experience at the Fort Augustus Abbey harbour.She saw what she first thought was a log, because of a distinctive 'scaly' bark pattern, but which then developed a wake and moved off to submerge, while she called her family. After she had sketched her impression (Figure 2, 8K) she was shown an illustration of a Sturgeon's bony plates, and considered the pattern to be reminiscent of what she had seen.

    For and Against a Sturgeon
    Anyone, of course, can assemble sighting reports to support a pet theory, and this one is brought forward mainly to show that, even in the absence of significant food resources, the largest freshwater fish in existence could possibly have been seen at intervals in Loch Ness.Given the large number of other causes behind sighting reports (Binns and Bell, 1983; Campbell, 1986), these intervals could be very long indeed.

    There is, however, a great deal more to the Loch Ness Monster than scientific probabilities, and the greatest argument against the Sturgeon or, more importantly, against any species of fish, is the long neck reported (Figure 1b, 7K), although such reports are more rare than is generally realised.It should be borne in mind that the first report of a long neck was when the "nearest approach to a dragon or prehistoric animal" lurched its way across the hot tarmac in front of the Spicer's motor car in July 1933 (Inverness Courier, 4th August 1933).This unprecedented behaviour has never been reported since.Prior to this, the beast was usually considered to be an unusual fish; Inverness Courier, 8th October 1868 ("a huge fish"), Northern Chronicle, 27th August 1930 ("a fish.....or whatever it was") and Scottish Daily Express, 9th June 1933 ("a mystery fish").

    Errors of Identification Undoubtedly, some 'long-necked' reports originate from water birds, such as Mr. Alex. Campbell's sighting (Gould, 1934: 111), although this was subsequently revised as the archetypal plesiosaur (Witchell, 1975: 55).Some large long-necked animals have indeed been seen swimming in the loch.The author is aware of five

    Vol 105, The Scottish Naturalist: Postscript: Surgeon or Sturgeon? p277

    instances when such animals have subsequently been identified as swimming deer. On three occasions, photographs were taken (Figure 3).It has been suggested by Burton (1961: 130-138) that some sightings, including some influential ones, could be due to such errors.

    Experiments with Human Perception It is now well understood that human perception consists of much more than just image, retina and memory.In contrast to 'hard' evidence, such as photographs, however, it is very difficult to assess sightings evidence because it is not usually possible to stand beside the witness.An exception to this is if an incident is contrived.
    Mr. Richard Frere gives an account (Frere, 1988: 175) of standing at a busy lay-by and, through a little theatrical behaviour, drawing attention to the turbulence caused by some trawler wakes.Reactions included sightings of various humps, long dark bodies, side flippers, and a thrashing tail.A drawing produced by a child showed a plesiosaur.
    On a less spectacular scale, members of the Project have also stood beside volunteer eye-witnesses, who were asked to observe an object surfacing and submerging.All were aware that we were contriving the incident, and it therefore seems possible that impressions were inspired less by pre-conceived Loch Ness Monster stereotypes than by concepts of the mechanism in the equipment.However, the results of this rather 'conservative' experiment (Figure 4, 17K) are of some interest, since 31% of the 36 observers retained impressions at some variance with the 45 cm straight-sided post they had actually seen at a range of approximately 150 m.

    Given that variation exists between image and perception in such prepared observers, it seems likely that individuals, sighting unrecognised objects on Loch Ness, may well have their perceptions influenced by the well-known Monster stereotypes.It is certainly the case that the wider impression of events, as disseminated and recorded by the media, may bear little relationship to what was actually seen.For example, in a recent case Miss Edna MacInnes was widely reported as having seen a creature with a "giraffe-like" neck (Aberdeen Press and Journal, 25th June 1993).When interviewed later she denied this, and stated that she had used the word "giraffe" in the context of conveying the sense of movement which the object made.Her drawing appears in Figure 5 (12K).

    Vol 105, The Scottish Naturalist: Postscript: Surgeon or Sturgeon? p281

    Some Conclusions
    Burton (1961: 91) suggested that gas such as methane could bring decaying vegetation, perhaps including branches resembling necks, to the surface.In the main, the Project's work has shown little gas production in deep Loch Ness sediments.There are two exceptional areas, however; one is a small area in Urquhart Bay, and there is a larger one off Fort Augustus, where great quantities of organic material accumulate and emit gas continuously during the summer.On one occasion (Figure 6, 19K colour chart), gas was detected from a source as deep as 97 m, which remained active for two weeks.It seems that vegetable debris, including branches, could break the surface in this particular 'Monster spot'.

    The morals of this story are two-fold.Firstly, large creatures may plausibly be witnessed in Loch Ness, whether or not science discovers sufficient red-herrings with which to feed them.On the other hand, the types of creatures suggested by science should not be over-ruled simply because they do not fit all witness perceptions.
    Those who find the author's attempts to modify the status of the very long-necked sightings unsatisfactory, may take comfort from the 'Surgeon's Photograph', standing guard over popular expectations for some sixty years, and confounding any science to take itself too seriously.

    References

    Anon.(1933).Strange spectacle on Loch Ness.What was it?(From a correspondent).Inverness Courier, 2nd May 1933.

    Binns, R. and Bell, R.J.(1983).The Loch Ness Mystery Solved.Shepton Mallet, Somerset:Open Books.

    Burton, M. (1961).The Elusive Monster.London:Hart Davies.

    Campbell, S.(1986).The Loch Ness Monster.The Evidence.Wellingborough, Northamptonshire:Aquarian Press.

    Frere, R. (1988).Loch Ness.London:John Murray.

    Gould, R.T.(1934).The Loch Ness Monster and Others.London: Geoffrey Bles.

    Kubecka, J., Duncan, A. and Butterworth, A.J. (1993).Large and small organisms detected in the open waters of Loch Ness by dual-beam acoustics.Scottish Naturalist, 105: 175-193.

    Vol 105, The Scottish Naturalist: Postscript: Surgeon or Sturgeon? p282

    Leblond, P.H. and Collins, M.J. (1988).The Wilson Nessie photograph: a size determination based on physical principles.Scottish Naturalist, 100: 95-108.

    Maitland P.S. and Campbell, R.N.(1992).Freshwater Fishes of the British Isles.New Naturalist Library, No. 75.London: Harper Collins.

    Ryder, R.A. (1965).A method for estimating the potential fish production of north-temperate lakes.Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, 94: 214-218.

    Sheldon, R.W. and Kerr, S.R. (1972).The population density of Monsters in Loch Ness.Limnology and Oceanography, 17: 746-798.

    Shine, A.J. and Martin, D.S. (1988).Loch Ness habitats observed by sonar and underwater television.Scottish Naturalist, 100: 111-199.

    Shine, A.J., Martin, D.S. and Marjoram, R.S.(1993).Spatial distribution and diurnal migration of the pelagic fish and zooplankton in Loch Ness.Scottish Naturalist, 105: 195-235.

    Williamson, G.R.(1988).Seals in Loch Ness.Scientific Reports of the Whales Research Institute, No. 39 (March 1988).Tokyo, Japan.

    Witchell, N. (1975).The Loch Ness Story.London: Penguin Books.

    Received July 1993

    Mr. Adrian J. Shine,
    Loch Ness and Morar Project,
    Loch Ness Centre,
    DRUMNADROCHIT,
    Inverness-shire
    IV3 6TU.