Late Eastern Zhou ?Sauropod from s8int.com

Late Eastern Zhou Sauropod
http://s8int.com/WordPress/tag/living-dinosaurs/

“The Shang dynasty (1766 BC – 1027 BC) ruled parts of northern and central China. Its capital city was located at Anyang near the border of Henan from about 1384 BCE. This dynasty was based on agriculture; millet, wheat, and barley were the primary crops grown.

Fang Jian Dinosaur 1

In addition to the crops, silkworms, pigs, dogs, sheep, and oxen were raised. Aside from their agricultural prowess, the Shang dynasty was also advanced in metallurgy. Bronze ships, weapons, and tools were found from that era.” Thinkquest
This Ancient Chinese ornamental box of bronze features an unmistakable depiction of a sauropod dinosaur. To be more precise, likely a prosauropod dinosaur. A version of the object appeared in the book (The Great Bronze Age of China, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1980, p. 285.)
Fong, Wen ed. This photo is from Zhengzhou, from the Henan Museum.

The sauropod dinosaurs are easily recognizable and difficult to miss, however, might science here again made its depictions of the creature to large? One alternative to consider is that the creature depicted is one of the group that modern science now calls prosauropods who among other things was generally smaller. The creature crawling up the side of the box is also making an appearance here out in the water in the introductory photo at the very top of the page.[Not shown here]

Fang Jian Dinosaur 2

 

Closeup by DD

 

Actually the creatures being depicted are quite obviously dragons of the early conventionalized sort, and we have discussed the matter on this blog before. They appear to represent the Longnecked kind of Sea/Freshwater Monster with such features as the long necks, humps on the back (sometimes a long winding body) Flipperlike limbs and a short tail, frequently a finned tail. And they are usually shown as more compact than some of the later stylisations of dragons, but they can be of any length. During the Zhou (Formerly "Chou") period they were often depicted in jade.

 

It is notable that these depictions at the sides of the vessel forming handles makes them exactly like some of the "Patagonian Plesiosaur" native depictions also mentioned on this blog earlier. And that is appropriate because both of them are being represented as "Water Tigers"

 

 

Above and below, two Zhou Dragons depicted in nephrite jade

 

Portrait of a Water Panther (North American Master Otter)

This is a Public Domain illustration of a mound artifact used at s8int.com to compare to a "Dinosaur": it is obviously a Water Panther (Mishibizhiw) with somewhat exaggerated teeth

Stalking Chicago’s Mythological Wildlife

http://www.humansandnature.org/blog/stalking-chicagos-mythological-wildlife

April 15, 2013  | Art, Mythology, Prairie, Riverways, Wildlife  |  8 Comments

Posted by Judy Speer

My quest in search of the mythological wildlife of the Chicago region began as a search for healing. I was a city girl, immersed in a culture disconnected from nature, and dealing with a protracted illness. I noticed that I felt better whenever I was in my tiny backyard among the plants and critters. That led me to explore the local forest preserves, finding wondrous remnants of native ecosystems, and awakening my inner naturalist.
As I gradually learned about native biodiversity and the need to protect and restore it, my inner artist and mystic also spoke up. I had a deep intuition that connecting with the spirit of the land would help me heal. I had opened a door by learning about nature, but mystery took the next step. The question occurred to me, seemingly out of nowhere: “What about mythological wildlife?” Every region has them; they must surely exist in Chicago, too. But who were they?  The only ones I had heard of were in urban legends: super-rats or feral crocodiles that live in the sewers and show up in somebody’s toilet on occasion.

I knew I had to go to the cultures living here before my immigrant ancestors arrived. At the time, the Native American Educational Services College was in Chicago, and I paid them a visit. When I asked the librarian my question, his eyes grew wide. “Oh, you want to learn about Mishebeshu,” he said, and brought me books with legends about this powerful creature that is believed to dwell under the lakes, rivers, and wetlands. It is described as a panther with horns and a long tail. Each tribe has its own name for the creature. The Ojibwe call it Mishebeshu, which, like the names given to this being by other native peoples, is sometimes translated as Water Spirit or Underwater Panther. I call it the Water Monster.
Not long after, at a conference with teachers and elders of many tribes, I asked an Ojibwe elder about Mishebeshu. She said that the people would always acknowledge the Water Monster before embarking on a canoe trip. They would sprinkle tobacco on the water as an offering.  If they didn’t, the Monster might sneak up on them and flip their canoes and drown them.

Springs and seeps, where water comes from underground, are the portal to their domain: the lowerworld. This is a place where outer and inner landscapes meet. It is full of shadow and mystery, but it should not be confused with European literature and mythologies about hell.  Though frightening, this Monster is not regarded as the embodiment of evil. It can be destructive, yet also bestow great blessings, such as healing power. In this Ojibwe story, a young woman refuses to follow her people’s practice of avoiding the Monster, and her confrontation has fortunate results.
Many of the Water Monster stories also mention a powerful creature of the sky: the Thunderbird. It’s a huge bird that makes thunder by flapping its wings and lightning by blinking its eyes. The Thunderbird brings rain. It guards and protects people. It gives warriors power. The portal to their upperworld realm is where earth meets the sky, including hills and bluffs. Thunderbirds are usually benevolent but occasionally fearsome, striking people with lightning or kidnapping them. They often battle with Water Monsters, carving out landscape features in the process, and enjoy eating their lowerworld counterparts.

My quest led me to sites across southern Wisconsin and northern Illinois where native people sculpted the earth into shapes of creatures. These effigy mounds are between 700 and 1200 years old. Most contain human burials, and may have been used for ceremony and/or as territorial markers.
When I heard about the effigy mound in Rockford, Illinois, I went to pay my respects. It was labeled as a “Turtle,” but had a very long tail. I also visited Lizard Mounds near West Bend, Wisconsin, which has many long-tailed mounds called lizards and panthers. I found a book by Robert Birmingham and Leslie Eisenberg entitled Indian Mounds of Wisconsin, which draws from scientific and native sources, and offers the explanation that the long-tailed mounds represent Water Monsters.  Many of the mounds in the shape of birds may represent Thunderbirds.
The people who probably know the most about the meaning of these mounds are the Ho-Chunk, who are descended from the mound-builders. The information they have shared so far is that the effigy mounds represent a spiritual worldview: that it is the role of the people to bring balance and harmony to the earth by connecting with the spiritual energy of the upperworld and the lowerworld, and making it visible in the world of our everyday existence.
Over the past few years I have been experimenting with this wisdom. Exploring the upper and lower worlds helps me to remember that my spirit and soul are woven of nature. One of the ways that I try to make Thunderbird and Water Monster energy visible in the everyday world is through volunteer work as a steward of an oak savanna, restoring ecological balance and harmony to a small piece of earth in need of healing. This practice has brought me a deep sense of belonging to this land, and I am being healed too.
When the U.S. government forced the Natives out of this area, the European-American settlers often dug into the mounds, and/or plowed them up. Who knows how many mounds were destroyed before being identified? Did some exist in the land now known as Chicago?
And where are today’s Water Monsters and Thunderbirds? I believe they haven’t been extirpated yet, but are waiting for anyone who seeks the wisdom they guard. Many of their portals have been altered since the time that the Potawatomie flourished in this region. Instead of springs and bluffs, urban-dwellers may look to sewer grates (or toilets) and skyscraper rooflines. A walk along the lakefront could turn into an encounter with the lowerworld or upperworld. Just as I didn’t expect an innocent question about mythological wildlife to become a quest for a new understanding of my place in the universe, you never know what might happen if you start becoming alert for a tail twitching in the water or a wing flapping in a cloud!

Images (from top to bottom)
* Illustration of Thunderbird and Water Monster, by Judy Speer
* Woven bag with depiction of Water Spirit, 1840-1880, Potawatomi
* Water Monster effigy mound, Rockford, Illinois
* Water Monster effigy mound near Burlington, Wisconsin, picture taken in 1927 by C. W. Beemer

  North American and South American Water Panthers are very much like the South American ones, and the South American Water Panthers are generally conceded to be the same as their giant otters.

Mound Builder Water Panthers (Or Waterdogs)

Water Panther mounds are at bottom and at top.
Some mounds look more like Plesiosaurs and are considered inexplicable.

 

South American giant-otter-print-n2-Georgetown

It is good to remember the shape of the giant otter's track because Water Monster tracks can be similarly  described as outsized and vaguely feline, or like a small pachyderm (or Hippo)

Longnecked Beast on Ancient Peruvian Tapestry

This turned up on my facebook page as purportedly showing a longnecked unknown animal on a Chuimu tapestry (ornamental embroidered cloth meant for a wall covering) from prehistoric Peru.

These appear to be representations of long-necked water monsters and "Dinosaurs" are still supposed to be sighted in the lower-lying jungle areas of Peru and Bolivia. These are not otters, otters do not have such elongated snouts nor such long flat ears. However, if the "Ears" are meant to show the Euryapsid skull openings again, we are once again talking Plesiosaurs and probably even "Patagonian Plesiosaurs." the legs are not very important and they could be representing flippers: I notice that the tail ends of these creatures send in a "Whirlpool" and I have seen the same conventionalization elsewhere,

Notices were also posted that this cloth is a National Treasure of Peru, that it was taken from the country illegally and is loot. I have no connection to this matter and I know nothing of the whereabouts of this cloth now. But if such is the case, I do hope the people of Peru get it back again.

CFZ Blog on Plesiosaurian Taniwhas-REPOST

http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/2010/04/dale-drinnon-plesiosaurian-taniwhas.html

Wednesday, April 21, 2010 DALE DRINNON: Plesiosaurian Taniwhas

[Plesiosaurus Fossil Skeleton above, Please note the shape of the Limb Girdles]

I had mentioned this in my yahoo group Frontiers of Zoology before. Tony Lucas is a member of the group. When we were discussing the Australian depiction of a plesiosaur on Lindsay's blog recently {see at end of this posting] I mentioned it again and I sent Tony a reminder message separately. Since then I received the suggestion that I post the information to the blog. The petroglyph long-necked Taniwahas are a traditional design and I include a modern piece of jewlery based on the design as confirmation the matter is already known locally (Left above).

In the case of the two long-necked Taniwhas, I have taken a scan of the petroglyphs from the rock face (which also include a thunderbird design and what could well be an elephant seal with a long nose) and rearranged them to be side by side. The creatures are about 60 feet long if human scale is accurate; female is shorter than male (neck not included in copy). Among other useful observations: the species has one opening in the rear (a cloaca) and the male has a single penis (not like snakes). And the limbs and limb girdles resemble those of plesiosaurs. The limb girdles also correspond to the equivalent water monster in the Phillipines and I attach a re-drawing of a textile illustrated in the Hamlyn Treasury of Primitive Art. I do not know the name of the creature but it seems to be called by the generic name of "Shark" (Chacon. Shark is one of the possible translations for Taniwha).

Rock-art Taniwha's limb compared to Plesiosaur's Flipper Skeleton And the Plesiosaurian design of the limbs is mentioned obliquely in other traditions. Different descriptions of water monster's feet in different parts of the world include the curious detail that there is a "Tiger's Palm" in the middle of the limb. This included the traditional description of the Chinese dragon. This is also told of the "Patagonian Plesiosaur". Circled in red of the plesiosaur's flipper skeleton illustration is the "Tiger's Paw".

Different descriptions of Water Monster's feet in different parts of the world include the curious detail that there is a "Tiger's Palm" in the middle of the limb. This included the traditional description of the Chinese dragon. Circled in red is the "Tiger's Paw". This is also told of the "Patagonian Plesiosaur".

I also include some Precolumbian "Patagonian Plesiosaur" depictions, which seem to be the direct parallel to the long-necked Taniwha depictions in New Zealand. 'Taniwha' is a generic and not a specific name, I might hasten to emphasise. You might say it was the equivalent to the English word 'monster.'

The Bagabo textile does not show just the one creature; it shows a pattern of two different things repeating in alternation. One image shows the whole creature between the legs of a human being (not shown in earlier reproduction) and this alternates with a depiction of a human in the belly of the beast. I was not certain whether to include it because it is not certain the same creature is being depicted, but one interpretation is that the larger head of the creature in this version is seen much closer to and its size is exaggerated in perspective (after all, that excuse is used in standard lake monster reports at Lochs Ness and Morar). At any event, it is not a crocodile since it has a "Snakehead" (Bagabo Textile, Mindinao, Phillipines, Hamlyn Treasury of Primitive Art, Plate 39, redrawn)

There is a problem in getting information about any of these creatures.
The actual names of the creatures are taboo and must not be mentioned. Thus, I do not know the name of the creature illustrated on the textile. Water tigers are reported in Indonesia but they are referred to as "Dogs" for the same reason that you must not mention them by name.

PS: I did go hunting through my storage boxes to find the original source for the New Zealand petroglyphs. They are drawn in charcoal at Ophi, South Canterbury. The absolute size is three feet long for the main bodies of the creatures, approx. six inches for the human figure, which is not measuring the legs (the legs are not indicated for their full length, or else the charcoal has rubbed off). The possible elephant seal and thunderbird are also about a yard long (or rather wingspan for the thunderbird). The elephant seal also seems to have a flipper with fingers, but it is not drawn the same as in the long-necked figures. The male long-necked creature is following the female, nose-end (without any apparent head) near the female's genital region, and has an erection, presumably preparing to mate. They are one after the other and not side by side as in my rearrangement for convenience's sake. Credit is given as The Polynesians: Prehistory of an Island People, Peter Bellwood, Thames and Hudson, 1978, London, p. 140, fig. 92.

PPS: The charcoal drawing is evidently from the inside wall of a rock shelter (cave dwelling) and is from between 1000 and 1500, date assumed because of other similar sites with similar artwork. The observation is also made that the makers were Polynesians and the artistic style is similar to other early Polynesian sites in the Pacific. I say this because the text makes these points adjacent to the figure 92 and not because the text explicitely states the date for that site. So this part is basically going on my inferrence that this was meant to be taken that way.

EDITOR'S NOTE: Dale sent the last two pieces to me, but I thought that they were pertinent and have enclosed them as addenda

1 comment: stormwalkernz [Tony Lucas] said... Dale, I am extremely glad you posted this. It is interesting that the word Taniwha is a very, very generic term. Under this heading comes sea creatures, land creatures and creatures of the air. The large " Thunderbirds" seen in the rock drawings could well be depictions of Harpogornis moorei - Haasts Eagle, which has been proven to have still been around during the time of early colonisation. This massive Eagle was quite capable of taking down a man, and was considered a threat. If this is correct and gives credence to the other creatures drawn as being actual live creatures that the artist saw. 3:52 AM

The posting which sparked this discussion was an earlier blog posting by Lindsay Selby concerning the following piece of Australian aboriginal artwork of a creature called a Yarru and posted on several of the "living Dinosaur" sites. The larger B&W version is from a scientific paper which dismissed it as a "Pseudoplesiosaur" carcass, noting that the stomach contents have been ripped out and are now lying on the ground about the creature (C). These seemingly include fishes, turtles, eels and a sea snake in front. All very reasonable for a Plesiosaur but NOT for a basking shark. And the belly has been opened because there is a human figure inside. This obviously illustrates some aboriginal myth. General feeling at Linsey's blog was that the painting was of modern manufacture but I have seen older examples like it-without, however, the creature looking quite so emphatically Plesiosaurian. However it is in good anatomical agreement with the other examples I cited on my follow-up blog posting.

UPDATE: While researching the latest series of articles on little-known African Cryptids, I came by chance upon a website that collected traditional African designs to be redistributed in artwork such as Rubber stamps. Here is a Mokele-Mbembe design from Dahomey, and it is exactly equivalent to the other possible Plesiosaur designs. This one is not so careful to show the flipper structure but it DOES indicate the vertebrae: there are approx. 20-30 vertebrae each in the neck, body and tail. That is roughly what I had determined from studies of other Longnecks the world over. It should be noted that multiplication of neck vertebrae is a trait that belongs almost exclusively to the Plesiosaurs themselves: placental mammals nearly always have the standard seven cervical vertebrae, including in giraffes.

See Also http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/search/label/plesiosaur#uds-search-results

http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/2010/01/dale-drinnon-on-discosaurus-and.html

Friday, January 08, 2010
DALE DRINNON: On "Discosaurus" and the possibility of Plesiosaurian Survival

Joseph Leidy had written several articles about the earliest finds of Plesiosaurs in North America, and one of them was the disputed 'Discosaurus' in Alabama, possibly originating from the same beds as 'Zueglodons' (Basilosaurus). He was writing in the 1850s and one of the comparable early finds was from the Greensands of New Jersey, thought to have been of Late Cretaceous age. The specimens in this case were named 'Cimoliasaurus'; however, some of them turned out to be cetacean vertebrae of probably Pliocene age, probably some sort of a dolphin.

However, this was some of the vertebrae and not all: Leidy did think the other vertebrae were legitimate and were of that genus, and probably related to that
'Discosaurus'
http://www.oceansofkansas.com/Leidy1865.html

However, it seems that both genus names are invalid. 'Cimoliasaurus' has been described as a 'garbage taxon' and several nondescript fossils from Europe and Australia have also been ascribed to this genus, much in the same way as the early tendency to call all early canivorous dinosaur finds 'Megalosaurus'

http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/220Lepidosauromorpha/220.820.html

In this case the really interesting thing is that the New Jersey fragmentary Plesiosaur is found in association with Pliocene dolphin fossils, mixed up together and only separated out later, and the Alabama fossils Leidy considered probably the same genus are labelled as coming from the Eocene zueglodon beds. In the case of the New Jersey Greensands, there is independant evidence that they are not only Cretaceous but also Tertiary: another site gives a paper in which several genera of O. C. Marsh's 'Cretaceous' birds from the New Jersey Greensands are actually of Eocene date or later.

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Auk/v084n02/p0260-p0262.html

The characteristics of these fossils has placed them tenatively in the same family as Cryptocleidus and Muraenosaurus, and they were thought to have been like the Elasmosaurs but with shorter necks. This is also along the lines of what the surviving Plesiosaurs would have to have been to give rise to our Long-necked Sea-serpents: long-necked, but not excessively long-necked, not so specialised as the extreme Elasmosaurs, and generalised enough to be versatile, possibly enough so that they could pursue other avenues of evolution that became open to them.

That makes a good deal of sense and I am willing to arrange the theory of Plesiosaurian survival on those terms alone.

2 comments:

Dale Drinnon said...
It is important to bear in mind that the name "Discosaurus" was invalid even as that name was given to it, that name had previously been given to something else. So the putative Post-Cretaceous Plesiosaur is officially nameless at this point.6:27 AM

scottmardis said...
There is more on Discosaurus pssibly being from Eocene deposits in the 1981 book "Fossil Vertebrates of Alabama"
I did not see Scott's comment at the time but he is absolutley right and that book was in fact one of my sources.