National Geographic Bigfoot Sunday

Bigfoot Special this coming Sunday on National Geographic

Yeti Hair DNA that of an Unknown species

My friend and frequent debating partner Paul Mead drew my attention to this matter on Facebook. It seems that believers in the existence of Yetis have some cause for rejoicing and justifiable excuse for lording it up over on the skeptics. One of the Cryptozoological discussion boards states the situation thusly:

"In 2008, Joshua Gates and his "Destination Truth" crew recovered a Yeti hair sample in Bhutan. The analysis reportedly came back as indicating 'an unknown DNA sequence.'

Fast forward 4 years later and now rumor has it that Dr. Melba Ketchum's DNA study will finally prove the existence of the Yeti in addition to Bigfoot.

According to Robert Lindsay:

'We have not been able to verify this rumor, but we have heard from several people that the Ketchum study also includes purported Yeti hair gathered by Josh Gates, apparently in Bhutan. We just heard it from someone very close to the study, so we think it is good.

The Yeti hair tested as no known animal, not human, unknown primate. Not only that, but the Yeti sample was actually close to the nearly 100 Bigfoot samples. So not only do Yetis exist, but they are closely related to Bigfoots. Some of us have always thought that Yetis were real, but lately, there has been a lot of skeptical research pouring cold water on the theory. The Wikipedia article on the subject says Yetis do not exist, and they are mythical.'

All of this has been very confusing to follow but I am glad that the DT Yeti hair is not part of this study and not associated with Ketchum's media circus. Although I would like to know what the eventual DNA results were of that hair.

Ketchum stated that she has been working with Bigfoot hair and tissue samples. I am sure that this story will change Yeti(yet) again as the saga continues."


There is good news here and bad news. The good news is that the Yeti hair has tested out as positively primate and unknown. The bad news is that coming from the source it does and in the context it does, the results cannot be trusted and in fact the analysis having been done by Ketchum actually hurts the case since her main study has been discredited.

However I am thinking that when Ketchum is out of the picture and this evidence is viewed again, This Yeti will turn out to be a valid unknown species and the same species as the North American Sasquatch. THIS Yeti is the Big Yeti of Heuvelmans, and the Dzu-Teh of Sanderson, the one that everybody agrees is likely to be a relict Gigantopithecus. Basically all we need is a new review of the evidence and that is already under way.

 

Paul Mead to Dale Drinnon on Facebook, 2 hours ago (5:20 PM July 2)
Dale, watched Josh Gate's program about the Yeti in Bhutan & the discovery of DNA from a large as yet unknown primate, surprised you haven't rubbed us the unbelievers noses in it

• Dale Drinnon I'm not the type that does that sort of thing (Blinking big blue eyes innocently). No I'll just bash you to kingdom come while the point is still an arguable issue.

  2 hours ago
• Paul Mead Dale, just joking, but surprised more wasn't made of this news at the time, unless of course, at a later date, the DNA was discovered to have come from the lesser spotted blue toed possum of the outer Himalayas!

  2 hours ago
• Dale Drinnon Part of the problem is that the sample was apparently sent to Melba Ketchum for analysis, and a lot of half-true statements were issued as a result (according to Robert Lindsay) And nobody knew what to do with it after that point. I actually don't know what I can say about the results myself (BTW to readers unfamiliar with the case, the DNA sample is from supposed Yeti hairs recovered in Bhutan in 2008)

  about an hour ago
• Dale Drinnon BTW there are no possums in the Himalayas. Lesser pandas are related to raccoons and you were probably making a reference to them

  about an hour ago
• Dale Drinnon One of the guys on one of the discussion boards said " I guess having possible proof of the existence of the Yeti is not a big deal after all. " and actually, I think that's about the size of it

  about an hour ago
• Paul Mead being totally facetious about the blue toed possum, interesting thought on the yeti, however, there will be no end to the debate, unless we discover to what group of animals it belongs - whether bear, orang-utan, unknown primate

  about an hour ago
• Dale Drinnon There remains the very important factor that "Yeti" is a generic term and does not definitely mean any one thing in particular. Switching over to a scientific term such as "Pongo sp" will make conversing about actual creatures something more concrete. As it is, you can say "Yeti" or "Bigfoot" or any comparable term and mean an unknown primate, a bear, or even a human being equally well in the ears of the listener. A most unsatisfactory arrangement!

  about an hour ago
• Dale Drinnon I realize you were being facetious about blue-toed possums, but that was a pertinent point about pandas and raccoons. In Biogeography you can have something like raccoons in the orient, but not possums, even though it is closer to Australia that way around. So you have more of a faunal continuity across Beringia than you do across Wallacea. (American possums evidently came up from South America) [This has a direct bearing on how reasonable it is to have the same species of Gigantopithecus in East Asia and in North America]

Bigfoot believer shares hairs: 'I wouldn't give it up for anything'

http://www.kpic.com/news/local/Bigfoot-believer-shares-hairs--199028631.html?hpt=us_bn10

Bigfoot believer shares hairs: 'I wouldn't give it up for anything'

By Dee Dee Gatton KPIC News with KPIC.com staffPublished: Mar 19, 2013 at 1:00 PM PDTLast Updated: Mar 19, 2013 at 6:03 PM PDT



SUTHERLIN, Ore. - Betty Klopp has been holding on to these strands of hair and bits of skin for nearly 45 years.

"Of course I've kept it," Klopp told KPIC News. "I wouldn't give it up for anything."

She believes the clumps came from a bigfoot.

No one has proven the existence of bigfoot - or sasquatch or yeti or skunk ape, as some call the creature.

Klopp is convinced the forest dweller is really out there.

"Oh definitely," she said. "I don't think people should go around shooting him if they find him."

Where the encounter took place

Her sasquatch keepsake comes from her parents. Klopp said her parents were driving along in the 1960s, towing a small trailer, when they swerved off the road to avoid hitting what they believed was a man.

Klopp said her parents stopped at the Porter Creek Store to assess what had happened. They got out of the car and searched the area, but they found nothing.

The next day, her parents discovered pieces of skin and hair snagged on the trailer.

"This is something you don't run into every day, quite literally," Klopp said.

She said the material was sent to the University of Montana for testing about 3 years ago. The results showed the DNA was too deteriorated and the hair too degraded to make any identification.

Klopp still believes. She decided to share her story after hearing reports that someone in Texas had killed a bigfoot.

"There are reports that someone has one and has shot it and is storing it in his freezer," Klopp said. "I would like to know for sure."

[The samples are of course head hairs, from something that has longer hairs on the head, and hence human-like. The problem with the DNA being too degraded to tell anything is actually common in supposed Bigfoot DNA samples, which is one reason to be cautious with any reported findings: most samples are not collected properly nor yet stored safely in airtight containers, so that contamination by the human sample handlers is also a very real possibility.]

Robert Lindsay, Bigfoot News

I am reproducing Robert Lindsay's entire column for the day because I shall have pertinent comments to make for several passages in it:

by Robert Lindsay | February 23, 2013 · 8:54 PM

 

Bigfoot News February 23, 2013

World exclusive – Justin Smeja of Sierra Kills fame releases a video at midnight detailing how Dr. Melba Ketchum told him to contaminate his Bigfoot steak sample from the Kills! She did so for unknown reasons, most probably so that other researchers would not use it and scoop her on the Bigfoot DNA story. It was a sleazy thing to do, but I think judging from the circumstances, Melba may have been right to make this morally dubious request. I detailed my reasons for that in the last post. Anyway, this is a blockbuster!
The story and video is on the Sierra Site Project website here.
The Men In Black (MIB’s) may be after Rick Dyer’s Bigfoot! Texas authorities have noticed [notified?] Las Vegas police about possible criminal or fish and game violations involved in the possible harvest of a nongame animal by Dyer in Texas in September 2012. What all of this means, I have no idea. The people promoting the idea have sources on the SWAT team in Las Vegas and they say that Dyer is hoaxing. If Dyer is hoaxing, why is LE going after him. I hope the MIB’s don’t confiscate the Bigfoot, if it exists!
Two shots hit Dyer’s Bigfoot. It now turns that Dyer fired on the Bigfoot two times, once hitting it in the back and the other time hitting it in the back of the head.
Michael Merchant is doing some great Bigfoot breakdowns lately! I don’t really like his podcasts too much, as he tears apart everything and everyone, but his breakdowns have a whole different attitude about them. Michael is very bright and very funny when he is good.

Michael Merchant breaks down Adirondacks Bigfoot.
This video has never made any sense to me. A friend of mine insisted it was a hoax, and the general view is that it is a hoax. However, this is one of the weirdest hoaxes I have ever seen, if it is a hoax. Look at the huge head! Combined with the small size. It could very well be a juvenile Bigfoot as they have gigantic heads.
Also the ears look exactly like Bigfoot ears, a nice touch that hoaxers almost never get right. It is bending its head back in a very bizarre way, but why would a hoaxer do that. And it goes down on all fours. Why? When do hoaxers ever go on all fours like that. It does look like a gorilla! Very much like a gorilla. All I have to say is that this is one of the weirdest Bigfoot videos I have ever seen!

Michael Merchant breaks down Nassau Bigfoot.
I really do think that this is a Bigfoot, and it is definitely going on all fours.
Michael Merchant breaks down San Juans Bigfoot.
This video is very strange and I cannot make any sense out of it. Whether it is a hoax or whether it is a real Bigfoot, I have no idea. The general view is it is a hoax, but that could be incorrect.
Dr. Melba Ketchum told Justin Smeja that the Bigfoot steak from the Sierra Kills would probably test as “bear” if he sent it out somewhere else! Turns out that Justin et al did send it out elsewhere, and it did test as “bear” from two separate labs. What kind of sense does that make? It makes no sense at all! I am as confused as anyone about this.
Ketchum is not hoaxing. One theory is that Ketchum has nothing but samples from known animals and that she has manipulated or misinterpreted those samples in some way as part of a gigantic scientific hoax. The problem is that that is scientific misconduct for sure if she did that. She would also be sued to Kingdom Come and she could be prosecuted by an enterprising DA for criminal fraud.
Ketchum is a rather shady person for sure (but many of the pillars of our society in business, entertainment and government are shady or worse), but she is not hoaxing. I do not believe that she is capable of scientific misconduct. She doesn’t have it in her, she doesn’t want to be sued and for sure she doesn’t want to go to jail or prison.
As far as ethical challenges, many of the greatest men and women in history had some rather remarkable ethical lapses, yet we still consider them great. Let God sort em out!
Another way we know she is not hoaxing is because I know that Adrian Erickson is not hoaxing. Erickson and his team definitely have samples from real Bigfoots. That’s for sure. If Erickson’s samples are real, then Melba’s samples are real. In addition, for sure Derek Randles and his team is not hoaxing, nor is Larry Jenkins, Mitch Waite, Alex Hearn, Stan Courtney, Larry Surface, Henner Fahrenbach, Rob Alley or JC Johnson. As far as the rest of the submitters, I doubt if most of them are hoaxers, but I don’t know them, so they might possibly be. We always have consider all hypotheses in science.
Critique of Ketchum’s DNA study. Via Tyler Huggins on Bigfoot Forums, who sent the study to a PhD friend of his:

Huggins: I have another, and seemingly final update from my PhD contact who would prefer not to post here:
PhD: “What my analysis says is that the bear sequences are real bear and not just primate sequences that are homologous to bear. That means that a bear was involved. This is consistent with your and Bart’s reports. It also points to the fact that it’s inclusion in the publication was inappropriate, because it adds more confusion than clarity.
I think this is gonna be it for me on this sample. It’s fairly tedious work. It’s pointing to an artifactual mosaic due to the combining of human and bear sequences along with poor quality control of the output. Here is something that you can post:
______________________________________
Further analysis of the sequence associated with Sample 26 indicates that it is 2.7 million nucleotides in length., which is only about 0.1% of the human genome. It tracks from beginning to end with sequences associated with Chromosome 11. Chromosome 11 is 134 million nucleotides in length. So, this would correspond to roughly 0.2% of the content of Chromosome 11.
There are segments that identify with very high significance to Ursid (bear) sequences. One major limitation related to the analysis is that Genbank is fairly limited in Ursid sequences. Most of the Ursid sequences identify with Panda, but Panda is fairly well represented in Genbank compared to black bear and other bears. The Ursid sequences appear to be mainly from coding regions, rather than structural regions.
It is really impossible to compare the Chromosome 11 structural sequences (non-coding) to similar sequences for bears. So, it is possible that there are bear non-coding sequences, as well. This makes it very hard to decipher what might be going on in terms of the source of the sample vs. the contaminant.
So, are the bear sequences real bear or are they primate sequences that identify closely with bear. A distance tree analysis in BLAST using several sequences that identified as phosphatidylserine synthase-2 like coding regions indicates that the Sample 26 version aligns most closely with Ursid sequence (Panda). A primate cluster (human, gorilla, baboon, chimp, rhesus monkey) are highly homologous but more distantly related. Additional sequences from dog, mouse and galigo (Otolemur) were included as outliers and branch further away as might be expected.
So, the upshot here is that the 2.7 million nucleotide data set for Sample 26 is highly flawed, and, therefore, would be nearly impossible to use to determine whether a non-human primate contributed DNA to the sample.”

Ok, based on that, my reading is that Ketchum’s analysis of the Bigfoot DNA from the Sierra steak makes no sense at all. I do not know what that means. It either means that Bigfoot DNA itself makes no sense or that there was something wrong with her analysis.
Craziest Bigfooters of all vindicated by Ketchum DNA study. Via this fascinating webpage of Ketchum’s very unprofessional website (my browsers warned about possible phishing sites due to improper certificates) we see a list of all of the successful submitters to the study. Many are rather unremarkable, but some do stand out.
For instance, Igor Burtsev, widely derided as a kook and quite possibly a hoaxer (he seems to have hoaxed a Bigfoot tour for Dr. Jeff Meldrum in the Kuzbass) nevertheless has 6 successful samples in the study, including one from Russia! 3 of the samples come from Tennessee (Apparently from the Carter Farm!), one from Michigan (Via Robin Lynne’s habituation site no doubt!) and one is from Russia (Which means that Ketchum’s study proves that Yetis are real!)
The Carter Farm is the site of Janice Carter’s story detailed in Mary Green’s book 50 Years with Bigfoot that details Janice’s growing up and living with the Bigfoots on her family farm in Tennessee over the course of a lifetime. It is widely derided as utterly ridiculous, in particular the parts about Fox the Bigfoot, and Janice has been proven to be a hoaxer, at least in part. In one scene, Fox comes to Janice’s door to ask for some garlic, which she gives him!
Janice herself has 7 successful samples in to Ketchum’s study and Melba’s page states that one of the samples was form the late Fox (Fox died in 2010) himself! How she figured that out, I have no idea. Yet the Ketchum study appears to prove that the Bigfoots at the Carter Farm, including the incredible Fox himself, were real, and hence Janice’s story, at least in part, is a true story! Holy Sasquatch!
In addition, Robin Lynne is Melba’s new spokesman and is widely derided as an ultra-kook even in Bigfoot circles. She says there are 10 Bigfoots living in and around her family’s rural property in Michigan. She feeds them fish and blueberry muffins! Once this story got out to the mainstream media, they all had a huge laugh about it. I even thought her story was insane, but apparently Lynne has a successful sample into Ketchum’s study, apparently validating that there are indeed Bigfoots living around her place and that her story is at least in part true. Holy Boogieman!

OK, Now for comments from DD-

I think that the story Melba Ketchum has asked Smeja to deliberately contaminate the samples has arisen because the suspicion now is that Smeja's samples are already contaminated.  This could be either Ketchum's actual request or Smeja covering his own ass by pointing fingers and making accusations.

That the differennt law enforcement agencies are snooping around Dyerand checking out his claim means nothing of any especial importance, it need not imply there is an actual body involved: all there needs to be is the report of suspicious activity. Word has also been circulating that Dyer admitted to the hoax on an internet radio broadcast and Bigfoot Evidence has carried that story recently.HERE

I do not endorse any of the videos, but I do not reject them all, either. I do endorse the idea that there is a large apelike creature present in North America, NOT a Bigfoot, which sometimes walks on all fours and which has been identified by Loren Coleman as a North American Ape or NAPE. Some of the reports are definitely runaway lab apes, Coleman has reasons to assume it is a native ape.  My data tends to support the idea there is a native ape closely similar to an orangutan, and that certain photographs including the Florida Myakka Ape photos depict it. The "broken back" of the one video creature is very peculiar and I suspect a hoax in that case-from the jerking of the camera around more than the wierd appearance of the creature, actually.

Large Apelike creature in high weeds in US Midwest,

compared to a view of an orangutan from the rear second row.

 Below are two extremes in colouration for the Borneo orangutans.

"Bigfoot up a tree, bear on the ground" above and

Below, closeup of the "Bigfoot"

Which also has an orangutan-like look to it

 All photos are from Bigfoot Evidence and reproduced here under the terms of Fair Use.

That the anamolous and already-questioned genetic sequences from chromosome 11 come from bears contaminating the sample in Ketchum's study comes as no surprise. When the findings came out and said the  results from chromosome 11 were not like other primates and were consistent with each other, bears were the most likely source of contamination and several commentators had guessed that is what the chromosome 11 results came from with no more information than that.

 I do not call Igor Burtsev a hoaxer for repeating incorrect information. There is a distinction to be made there, as to whether the misinformation was innocently repeated but incorrect or was maliciously manufactured with intent to deceive. The latter is what is actually defined as a hoax.

Reference to the Russian sample as a "Yeti"is misleading and mistaken. The mistake evidently arises because Myra Shackley said these Russian reports sounded like the Tibetan "Yeti" reports. Actually, "Yeti" is a generic term and does include some reports which sound like the Russian reports, but also other reports which sond like Sasquatches and once again, other reports which sound like orangutan-like apes. The term "Yeti" can equally well be used for any of several kinds of bears. In any event, the term is inappropriate to use for any populations living in Central Siberia because it is non-native to the area and native to Tibet.

The Crazies included in Ketchum's studies were considered to be legitimate. I was given some of the hair samples supposedly from Fox at the Carter Farm: my samples were not analysed but sent away to the CFZ where the samples were discarded by mistake. I had heard that other samples tested out as 99.5% of modern Homo sapiens genetically but that the scientist who made the analysis at that point wanted all the glory for himself and so a dispute arose over proper credit. I was also told (through sources attributing the source as Igor Burtsev) that the DNA matched the DNA as taken from Khvit's tooth. I was quite happy with this result but it seems that this result was subsequently disputed also. I kept the documentation of these notices in my Yahoo Cryptozoology group Frontiers of Zoology. I became a sideline observer of Ketchum's study because I had a vested interest, and my interest was wholly in the DNA analysis and nothing to do with the stories told on the locations or anything else. The story was that Janice had tempted Fox to come close by offering him food and then snatched a handful of hairs off his arm when he came too close. Incidentally Robin Lynn is also a friend of mine on Facebook but Janice Carter has never spoken to me directlly, on facebook or anywhere else, she avoids me like the plague.

I still hold to the information as it was given to me that the Bigfoot DNA is 99.5% of modern human and that it matches the DNA from Russia. My personal conclusion was, as I have subsequently maintained, that Bigfoot was classifiable as Homo sapiens by the DNA, but had some rather obvious external differences, primarily in having a hairy coat. I recognise the fact that the information given me that the samples were 99.5% of modern human were also possibly  fraudulent but I have no independant reason to believe so other than the fact the hairs were said to have come from a Bigfoot. I was given this information via email and within the group Frontiers-of-Zoology, where the original messages remain, but I was never shown any hardcopy documentation (ie, published papers including the stated results)

 I do allow that there has been local mixing of Bigfoot and Human DNA over time and in different places, and that interbreeding does occur. I do not say that Bigfoot came about from crossing two completely different species with Proto-Bigfoots being the fathers and European females were the mothers, as Ketchum does. Rather I say that they were Homo sapiens (Hairy phase) all along, and interbreeding took place because we were the same species. And that is going by the common taxonomic practice of including Neanderthals and Heidelburgers as "Early Homo sapiens". Ketchum's estimate of protoBigfoots diverging perhaps a million years ago makes no difference because that is still in the Early Homo sapiens time range (this time being the early Heidelburgers sometimes called Homo antecessor) and I personally consider that two species become distinct only once they get beyond that million years of separation mark.

For a reminder: Loren Coleman and Patrick Huyghe's Field Guide To Bigfoot, Yeti, & Other Mystery Primates Worldwide  lists among the terrestrial higher primates covered in the guide the categories True Giant, Neo-Giant, Marked Hominid, Neandertal, Homo erectus, Protopygmy, Unknown Ape and Unknown Monkey. I would combine the first two in a general Giants category and leave off the Monkey category for the moment. The Homo erectus types are necessarily more comparable to Solo Men, and those are more likely another sapiens type than actually erectus. So those middle four categories are all Homo sapiens types and are not unknown animals, they are the same species as us! (The Unknown Apes are also mostly all varieties of orangutans, counting the ones outside of Africa only.)
http://www.amazon.com/Field-Bigfoot-Mystery-Primates-Worldwide/dp/0380802635
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/flawed_guide_to_bigfoot

And I reiterate: if Bigfoot (of the EASTERN US kind, which Coleman calls a Marked Hominid) is Homo sapiens, there is no reason to kill any of them to take any specimens. They are the same species as us. To kill one of them is still literally and legally murder. There are no big prizes to be earned, there is no new species and no new unknown species involved (This last statement is possibly even true of the NAPES, because they might be close enough to orangutans to be the same species: they could ALL be Apes Gone Wild from captivity)