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Showing posts with label Denisovans. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Denisovans. Show all posts

Friday, 1 March 2013

Darren Naish Sends notice of Denisovan on Deviant Art

A while back Tyler Stone had sent me the beginning of a reconstruction of a "Neanderthal" that he found while surfing the net and I posted it here:m the work was still in progress then. Yesterday, Darren Naish's notice on Facebook alerted me to that the same piece of art. It had been posted on Deviant Art and that the artist had revised it to be a "Denisovan or Arctic Neanderthal." It is still a very good approximation of what Loren Coleman calls a Marked Hominid (after Mark A Hall). Darren Naish and his other friends them went off into a discussion abvout Homo sapiens subspecies (H.s.ssp.)from that point on. NB, I only got the message because of Darren's making remarks on the link: somebodt else had posted the link, but I had  o connection to the other party. Darren has subsequently let me know that he had no prior knowledge of or connection to this illustration.

 
The name of this artwork is listed as denisovan__or__polar_neandertal__by_keesey-d5whvpb
on the Deviant Art site. I shall fill in more details later if any more details are forthcoming.
 
BTW, I have pulled a muscle in my back and sitting at the computer is painful for me.
Because of that I shall be spending only limited time on the blogs and any comments left
on any of my blogs shall be going unanswered until I can manage to get to them.

Friday, 30 March 2012

Commentary on ADAPTIVE RADIATIONS, BUSHY EVOLUTIONARY TREES, AND RELICT HOMINOIDS

Thomas Finley [On the Right] is one of my favourite paintings I made especially for the Sasquatch Summit in honour of John Green last spring. Nice comparison Dale. :-)
The differences between the Eastern and Western types of creatures called Bigfoot are depicted in the artwok done under witness' supervision above and in the distinctive types of footprints in the track casts illustrated to the Left. In the latter case, E means East and W means West. The physical differences between the two populations makes a good case for multiple species involved and more diversity between the reports than is generally realised by researchers.
While I greatly welcome the journal Jeff Meldrum is posting in as well as his editorial, which includes much valuable evidence not made widely known before, I do wish to point out some caveats which must be considered along with any such discussion as well.

In considering the matter of relic hominoids and the concept of bushiness in our family tree, there are a couple of different things which are both in operation and both of them are working against each other. One is thetenfy and that is what causes the bushiness. But against the creation of new species there are the two major constraints of the time necessary to a new species and the available quantity of genetic changes which are possible within that time. You have a problem of time and you have a problemn of (genetic) space. Along with this is the central problem I always bring up: scientists have yet to make a definition of exactly how much genetic difference is need between two creature's genomes to determine a species which will be agreeable to all of the experts involved.


Recently I posted this chart on this blog along with the discussion on the genetic study it went with. The results shown on this chart show the interesting feature that whileeal of separation between the Classic Western European Neandertals and Denisovans, the gap is largely filled up by the older and more diversified Neanderthaloids which include the Asiatic populations. The Asiatic ones are about as far genetically from the Europeans as they are from the Denisovans. The likelihood that the Denisovans actually constitute a separate species is drastically reduced.

Proponents of bushiness are going on a general theory which is drawing on an estimated range of total number of species and estimating what share of that diversity should be in our family tree. Neither of those figures is actually demonstrated or even demonstrable: they are theoretical ideals. There are some practical considerations about how far one can take these things literally. I am also fond of pointing out that there is only so much genetic space between chimpanzees and humans and the tests state that the Neandertal DNA can take up to HALF of that available space, so where are you going to fit all of those other intermediate species in between. From the practical point of view, you need to be reducing the number of species and easing up on the pressure to fit more species into the ever-shrinking gap, rather than trying to multiply the number of species.

There is thus the balancing of diversifying categories for relic hominoid species and the  numbery represent  and then again consolidating the putitive species into fewer categories in order to satisfy the more conservative academics  and the lumpers.
Two recent articles by my friend Tyler Stone illustrate the problems we are dealing with both in creating the family trees and in estimating the number of reported types of unknowns we are dealing with. They are indicated below.

Archaic Homo sapiens

[Tyler Sone's blog Titanoceratops, for March 7, 2012]
There has been a big debate in recent years of whether or not Neanderthals are a subspecies of modern human (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or a separate species (Homo neanderthalensis). Most geneticists say that Neanderthal DNA is sufficiently different from ours to suggest that they are a different species. Yet while I was watching a Neanderthal documentary the other day called Clash of the Cavemen, one geneticist being interviewed said that the total number of genetic differences between modern people is about 1 in 1000. He then went on to say that the genetic differences between a modern person and a Neanderthal are 1.5-2 in 1000. This is barely beyond the normal variation found in humans. To me, this does not sound like enough genetic differences to qualify as another species.
The main problem is actually Homo heidelbergensis. Today it is generally acknowledged that H. heidelbergensis is the common ancestor of Neanderthals, modern humans, and the recently-discovered Denisova hominin. The problem with H. heidelbergensis is classifying it - over the years it has been classed as a subspecies of H. erectus, an archaic form of H. sapiens, and its own distinct species.*

Tree showing the evolution of hominins.
Image from unrefinedthoughts.wordpress.com.

*Note: in this case I am going to consider H. antecessor, H. cepranensis, and H. rhodesiensis identical to H. heidelbergensis until sufficient fossils appear to show that they are different.
The fact is, the only feature that comes up that seems to really differentiate H. heidelbergensis is brain size; H. erectus fossils have an average cranial capacity of 900 cubic centimeters; this jumps to 1300 cubic centimeters in H. heidelbergensis, and both it and Neanderthals have cranial capacities that are either within or greater than the cranial capacity of H. sapiens.
Having looked at this, I think brain size is the key to identifying species of Homo. While it is very difficult to identify different species of human by their physical features, there are multiple areas in the hominin fossil record which show jumps in brain size, which in tern coincides with new technological innovations. Now, because Homo heidelbergensis, Homo sapiens, and Homo neanderthalensis all have brains that are the same size, it is my opinion that they are actually members of the same species: Homo sapiens (the Denisova hominin would be included as well; however, no cranial bones are known from this being at this time). In this case, they are all different subspecies: H. sapiens heidelbergensis, H. sapiens neanderthalensis, the Denisova hominin, and H. sapiens sapiens. If you wish to divide it even more, then you could also add H. sapiens rhodesiensis, H. sapiens antecessor, and H. sapiens cepranensis, although I think this may really be splitting the fossil forms a little too much. In the end, while the term "Archaic Homo sapiens" is generally considered outdated, this new information seems to suggest that it may be correct!

Comparison by Dale Drinnon of four basic cryptid primate types, including my Freshwater Monkey!
Image from frontiersofzoology.com.


Monday, March 12, 2012

http://titanoceratops.blogspot.com/2012/03/mystery-primate-omnibus-sort-of.html

The Mystery Primate Omnibus (Sort of)

Having looked at the primate classification schemes proposed by Ivan Sanderson, Mark Hall, Loren Coleman and Patrick Huyghe, and Dale Drinnon, I have tried to create a classification scheme that encompasses all of their ideas and puts the animals into proper groupings. In this case, I think Sanderson's original classification is the most accurate, but that each one made after adds important sub-groupings, which I've included here. They are sorted from "most manlike" to "least manlike" in the style of Sanderson. ...[I shall move ahead to the conclusions part to show the whole catalogue but interested readers can always go back to Tyler's blog for the full article]
 
 UPDATE: after doing some more research, I have come to the conclusion that the "Marked Hominin" and "Neanderthaloid" Wildman sub-types are subspecies the same animal, Homo sapiens. Thus, I have dropped the Marked Hominin sub-type and combined it with the Neanderthaloid.


Additionally, while others would have Erectus Hominins be added to the above group as well, thus being the same species as H. sapiens, I consider H. erectus to be a distinct species and have thus decided to let the category stand.


I also see where there could be confusion: this is not an original list. It is my attempt to combine the lists of others in a way that makes sense and is accurate for the animals being described. Likewise, these categories aren't meant to symbolize one species, but rather is a simple way to sort different species into basic categories based on physical and behavioral characteristics. To prevent confusion, here is a list to show the total number of species present.


Wildmen (two, possibly three species)
  • Neanderthaloid [including a normal-sized and a large-sized morph like H.heidelbergensis]
  • Erectus Hominin
  • ?H. floresiensis?
Australopithecines (two definite species)
  • Gracile
  • Robust
Neo-Giants (two species)
  • Asian
  • American
Unknown Pongids (four species)
  • "Yeti"
  • "Skunk Ape"
  • Parapongo
  • American Siamang
Merbeings (three species)
  • Marine
  • Freshwater (Eurasian)
  • Freshwater (American)


Out of this list, however, Neanderthaloids, Erectus Hominins/H. floresiensis, and the Asian Neo-Giants appear to represent species known from the fossil record. On the other hand, Gracile and Robust Australopithecines, "Skunk Apes," and American Neo-Giants are all probably new species of known genera. This means that they all qualify as being known in one way or another. Thus, only the "Yeti," Parapongo, American Siamang, and Merbeings are completely  unknown, and likely all represent new species and genera, if not new families.
 
Primate family tree created by Dale Drinnon. While I agree with his points here, I would also add a branch for Australopithecus, Paranthropus, and Homo erectus.
Image from frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com
 

Comment posted by Tzieth at Bigfoot Evidence on Mar 9, 2012 05:48 PM

Here is an example of how you can't assume all Hominid reports are Sasquatch (As in Patty). Almasty of Russia, Mongolia, China and the Caucasus are reported to make fire and medicinal teas and occasionally ware clothes and carry weapons. We also have these reports in the Pacific Northwest and Canada. "Neanderthaliods" The things in the South behave completely different and seem to be hairier and shorter on average. Unlike in the PNW, these things are said to be highly aggressive and territorial. (Pacific Northwest Sasquatch are thought to be nomadic and migratory as sightings drop in the winter here in Washington.)

Some of the Southern reports say they have fangs and four or three toed feet which could mean a mix of two different creatures reported in the same areas. which brings me to Skunkapes. Skunkapes have fangs and would leave three or four toed footprints [plus the offset "Thumb"] because they are most likely true apes with hand like feet. Depending on how the toes are spread as they walk, the prints from the same animal could vary. Florida has a problem with invasive species both plant and animal because virtually anything can not only survive, but flourish there. How skunkape got mixed in with "Bigfoot" I will never know. The actual reports are of chimp and orangutan-like creatures.

A-lot of the reports that come out of my native Texas are even more differing. East Texas reports are mostly they typical Southern Sasquatch. (Overly hairy around five-six feet tall and bulky.) But central and north Texas reports are of tall lanky creatures that are well toned, but not massive.

Monday, 19 March 2012

Neanderthal Family Tree Reflects Geography

Neanderthal + Denisovan Family Tree.
Denisovans are in with the Asiatic Neanderthals, about as far removed from them as the Asiatics are from the European Neanderthals. They are NOT sufficiently different to warrant a new species

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/neandertal-population-structure/

There’s a new paper out, Partial genetic turnover in neandertals: continuity in the east and population replacement in the west. The primary results are above. Basically, using 13 mtDNA samples the authors conclude that it looks as if there was a founder effect for Neanderthals in Western Europe ~50 K years ago, generating a very homogenized genetic background for this particular population before the arrival of modern humans. Perhaps it’s just me, but press releases with headlines such as “European Neanderthals Were On the Verge of Extinction Even Before the Arrival of Modern Humans” strike me as hyperbolic. I’m also confused by quotes like the one below:

“The fact that Neanderthals in Europe were nearly extinct, but then recovered, and that all this took place long before they came into contact with modern humans came as a complete surprise to us. This indicates that the Neanderthals may have been more sensitive to the dramatic climate changes that took place in the last Ice Age than was previously thought”, says Love Dalén, associate professor at the Swedish Museum of Natural History in Stockholm.
There are several points that come to mind, from the specific to the general. First, from what I gather Neandertals were actually less expansive in pushing the northern limits of the hominin range than the modern humans who succeeded them. From this many suppose that despite the biological cold-adapted nature of the Neandertal physique they lacked the cultural plasticity to push the range envelope (e.g., modern humans pushed into Siberia, allowing them to traverse Beringia). One might infer from this that Neandertals were more, not less, sensitive to climate changes than later human populations. Second, there is the fact that as the northern hominin lineage one would expect that Neandertals would be subject to more population size variations than their cousins to the south during the Pleistocene due to cyclical climate change. This is not just an issue just for Neandertals, but for slow breeding or moving organisms generally. The modern human bottleneck is in some ways more surprising, because modern humans derive from a warmer climate. Finally, there is the “big picture” issue that though we throw these northern adapted hominins into the pot as “Neandertals,” one shouldn’t be surprised if they exhibit structure and variation. Non-African humans have diversified over less than 100,000 years, at a minimum the lineages which we label Neandertals were resident from Western Europe to Central Asia for ~200,000 years. Wouldn’t one expect a lot of natural history over this time?
Presumably the authors focused on mtDNA because this is copious relative to autosomal DNA, making ancient DNA extraction easier. I’m a bit curious how it aligns with the inference from the Denisovan paper that Vindija and Mezmaiskaya Neandertals both went through a population bottleneck using autosomal markers. The dates from the paper’s supplements are not clear to me, though it seems possible that they may have sampled individuals where the Vindija population may have been post-resettlement. At some point presumably we may be able to get a better sense of the source population of the Neandertal admixture into our own genomes if the genomic history of this population is well characterized.

February 26th, 2012 Tags:
by in Human Evolution, Paleontology | 7 comments | RSS feed | Trackback >

7 Responses to “Neandertal population structure”

  1. 1. Onur Says:
    None of the dates of the bottlenecked Western European Neanderthal specimens are prior to the modern human migration to Western Europe. The date of the Neanderthal bottleneck in Western Europe (<50,000 years before present) clearly coincides with the date of the appearance of modern humans in Western Europe (again <50,000 years before present) . It seems modern humans pushed Neanderthals to certain corners of Western Europe when they colonized Western Europe and this triggered a population bottleneck in Western European Neanderthals. Because that it would take longer for modern humans to colonize Eastern Europe with its harsh climate, Eastern [Western?-DD] European Neanderthals would preserve their earlier genetic structure longer.[ Does this mean"The Advent of Modern Humans in EASTERN Europe?" Basic wisdom has it they appeared in the East and went West. In  articles, the Western European examples-out of NW Africa no doubt-are younger than their Eastern European counterparts by several thousand years-DD]
  2. 2. Maju Says:
    Nice map, it helps a lot to see the big picture.
    The only thing that this says is that the late West Neanderthals of Feldhofer, Vindija and El Sidrón were, matrilineally, descendants from a single population, which was distinct from their geographic predecessors of Valdegoba and Scladina but closely related to the “old school” Neanderthals from Italy. It can therefore be imagined that West and Central Europe were re-colonized from Italy (or maybe the nearby West Balcans).
    Instead Caucasian and Altaian Neanderthals retained their distinct lineages. We lack info from the late Southern Iberian Neandetrhals, which I would imagine more archaic than their continental neighbors (but just a guess).
    Feldhofer is characterized by a Micoquian culture (big almond shaped axes, often, but not in this case, intersped with Mousterian). Vindija and El Sidrón are both Mousterian. I say because I was kind of expecting this bottleneck to be related to Chatelperronian or other early UP techno-cultural expansion but there’s lack of data on that, I realize now.
    Whatever the case the appearance is of a population replacement by Neanderthals on other Neanderthals with an Italian or Balcanic source. As Onur says, it is at least curious that those dates are already within the probable time-frame of H. sapiens penetration in Europe: Istallosko, the earliest Aurignacian site, is 47.7 calBP, 44.3 BP uncal., with even older “aurignacoid” dates existing in Swabia and a number of other loosely “aurignacian” sites at the Pyrenees, South Germany, etc. before 45 Ka calBP.
    There is a modern (H. sapiens) individual dated to c. 55 Ka BP (OSL, stratigraphy) in Palestine (Emirian culture, considered precursor of other “Aurignacoid” groups). So we must realize that Neanderthals were already interacting with “us” since very early, even in Europe itself.
  3. 3. Eurologist Says:
    Not sure what is going on with this blog’s software, but my posts are no showing up. Another try:
    I have a hard time with the authors’ interpretation. It all hinges on a very small number of early western specimen, and their dating.
    If one believes the timing, there was an expansion of the tight group (blue in the figure) ~60,000ya. The other branches may very well have expanded, too – we have simply insufficient data prior to ~42,000ya.
    Now, all or nearly all of the finds of the tight group are dated to when AMHs were already present in the region. Since the expansion occurred well beforehand, I don’t see a bottleneck, but rather a very strong selection event. Could this group have had physiological features that spared them? Were they resistant to newly brought-in diseases?
    I also miss a discussion of the archeological context. Surely, instead of relying on the very few specimen we have, one should compare to known sites and occupation timings. IIRC, there indeed were expansions at some sites ~60,000ya and shortly before AMHs arrived.
    Interesting also that none of the tight group survived the Phlegraean Fields eruption…
  4. 4. Jacob Roberson Says:
    I go into pop-sci articles expecting speculative scifi.
  5. 5. Randall Parker Says:
    ~50 years ago???
  6. 6. Razib Khan Says:
    Since the expansion occurred well beforehand, I don’t see a bottleneck, but rather a very strong selection event. Could this group have had physiological features that spared them? Were they resistant to newly brought-in diseases?
    i don’t understand what you’re trying to say. you don’t consider a selection event a bottleneck?
  7. 7. Eurologist Says:
    “you don’t consider a selection event a bottleneck?”
    Perhaps I am misunderstanding something here, but my reading of the authors indicates that they place a bottleneck just before the expansion @ ~60kya — ~15-20ky before what I see as a selection event. My argument is that while there may have very well been a contraction (expected ~70ka-60ka ago due to climate), there are noteworthy logical fallacies, here.
    Firstly, there is a strong ascertainment bias: the vast majority of specimen from which mtDNA has been extracted is of course the most recent material (<42kya).
    If, on the one hand, the analysis indicates a population expansion 60-50kya, but on the other hand we have almost no data from that time period nor from the time until 42kya, then we cannot say much about the makeup of the population during that time.
    Lacking that, a reasonable *conjecture* would be that *all* then-existing branches expanded – because the one that we *have* data from shows this pattern. Then, the only conclusion one is left with is that – although somewhat plentiful – all but the "blue" branch vanished with the arrival of AMHs. That's selection – not a bottleneck, at *that* time. And note – I am usually extremely cautious about selection.
    In other words, envision figure one with another pink and green and yellow tree (think "little boxes" song), similar to the "blue" lineage – except the other ones didn't make it past 42kya. It's like our Sun or planets or Saturn's ring syndrome: we are hardwired to initially think – based on a single data point – they are exceptions – until we realize they are not.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090415075150.htm

Three Neanderthal Sub-Groups Confirmed

ScienceDaily (Apr. 15, 2009) — The Neanderthals inhabited a vast geographical area extending from Europe to western Asia and the Middle East 30,000 to 100,000 years ago. Now, a group of researchers are questioning whether or not the Neanderthals constituted a homogenous group or separate sub-groups (between which slight differences could be observed).
Paleoanthropological studies based on morphological skeletal evidence have offered some support for the existence of three different sub-groups: one in Western Europe, one in southern Europe and another in the Levant.
Researchers Virginie Fabre, Silvana Condemi and Anna Degioanni from the CNRS Laboratory of Anthropology (UMR 6578) at the University of Marseille, France, have given further consideration to the question of diversity of Neanderthals by studying the genetic structure of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and by analyzing the genetic variability, modeling different scenarios. The study was possible thanks to the publication, since 1997, of 15 mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences (the mtDNa is maternally transmitted) that originated from 12 Neanderthals.
The new study confirms the presence of three separate sub-groups and suggests the existence of a fourth group in western Asia. According to the authors, the size of the Neanderthal population was not constant over time and a certain amount of migration occurred among the sub-groups. The variability among the Neanderthal population is interpreted to be an indirect consequence of the particular climatic conditions on their territorial extension during the entire middle Pleistocene time period.
Degioanni and colleagues obtained this result by using a new methodology derived from different biocomputational models based on data from genetics, demography and paleoanthropology. The adequacy of each model was measured by comparing the simulated results obtained using BayesianSSC software with those predicted based on nucleotide sequences.
The researchers hope that one day this methodology might be applied to questions concerning Neanderthal cultural diversity (for example the lithic industry) and to the availability of natural resources in the territory. This could provide new insights into the history and extinction of the Neanderthals.
Journal Reference:
  1. Fabre et al. Genetic Evidence of Geographical Groups among Neanderthals. PLoS ONE, 2009; 4 (4): e5151 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0005151

 A discriminant functions analysis for fossil Homo skulls. They basically fall into four natural groups (from the top)as  Homo erectus, H. sapiens heidelbergensis (archaic Homo sapiens), H sapiens neanderthalensis (Neanderthals) and modern Homo sapiens, more distinctive from all the rest. There are sound reasons for including ALL of them in one species as Homo sapiens
    In a conference about the neanderthal genome, Carles Lalueza told to us that neanderthals didn't seem to come only from one group of hominids, because looking at their genome(s) they found that they came at least from two different groups, one of them being more closely related to us (modern humans) and the other diverged from our line earlier.
    It seems that neanderthals' ancestors mixed with other archaic groups when they left Africa, although we don't know when and where.

    It is possible that they come mainly from a group who diverged from us about a million of years ago, but then, once in Europe/Asia, these archaic hominids mixed again with another group of hominids more akin to us?

    This may explain why neanderthals are anatomically quite different from us, but genetic information tell us another different history.


    'This is ongoing research anyhow and we'll know better for sure some years from now.'

    I hope so, it'd be very interesting to sequence more genomes from neanderthals and modern humans, but unfortunately the Neanderthal genome project already finished.

    http://www.elcomerciodigital.com/v/20100828/cultura/proyecto-genoma-neandertal-concluido-20100828.html

    Carles Lalueza is seeking for more neanderthal DNA in El Sidrón, but there's no enough money to start another project :(
    http://www.elcomerciodigital.com/v/20100828/cultura/sidron-buscara-financiacion-europea-20100828.html

    Antigen analysis suggests that modern Homo sapiens mixed with Neanderthals three separate times in different places, and with groups of Neanderthals that were more primitive or advanced relative to each other. Below is the initial DNA analysis chart showing how different Neanderthals were to the rest of us. The two curves do have a small degree of overlap in the zone marked between 15 and 20 genetic differances.
Neanderthals by Zdenek Burian. Below, Specific points of difference in the Neanderthal skeleton.

Neanderthal distributions: basically Neanderthals inhabited the warmer zones to the South, below the tree line during the Last Ice Age: they also inhabited the tundra areas here marked Western Palearctic and Central Palearctics they seem to have lived by following the herds of herd mammals, picking off scavengers and finding winter kills. Below, the tree line in the Mediterranean area.
Below, areas of late-persisting Neanderthals around the European Fringe, Western Neanderthals. Eastern Neanderthals also persisted to this larte date (approx 25000 BC or later) in the Caucasusl Siberia and in the Mountainous regions of Central Asia. These areas are of interest because they are also areas from which eminate more recent reports of Wildmen. The black sanctuary areas indicated below were not supposed to have persisted nearly so long.
The following charts are from Austin Whittal's Patagonian Monsters site anvokithat Neanderthals might very well have headed into the Americas at an early date, possibly in reaction to the movements of humans Out of Africa in the era of 65000 to 35000 BC. Thcates the expansion of Neanderthal territories Eastward and the solid yellow indicates the area they were "Classically" said to inhabit.

 http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/2011/09/neanderthals-migration-to-america-part.html

Another map from Patagonian Monsters indicates that the frequency of certain persisting genes out of the Neanderthal Genome are not only found in North and South America, the frequencies are actually higher there than in the Old World.orized a large proportion of Neanderthal admixture present during the peopling of the Americas. Below, Maurice Burton's Neanderthals