While discussing the matter of the Hagen carcass with Jay Cooney, the possibility of an Archaeocete identity came up. I had several reservations about archaeocetes per se but I suggested that the creature could have been something like a Dorudon and have both the rear flippers and a whale-tail simultaneously. At this time I am thinking it could be the strongest candidate we have. Jay Cooney also feels it is something along those lines "Most likely something with the features of no dorsal fin, rear flippers[as well as the front flippers], and a whale-tail."
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| Dorudon |
http://bizarrezoology.blogspot.com/2013/08/hagan-carcass-comparisons-part-2gambo.html
http://bizarrezoology.blogspot.com/2013/08/hagan-carcass-comparison-images-part.html
Above, top to bottom: top, Thomas Finlay's painting of the Hagen carcass,
two views of Gambo and a drawing of the carcass by the witness.
Above, Bruce Champagne's SeaSerpent category 2b,
Gambo in two views once again and the Hagen carcass once again.
Below is Tim Morris' (Pristichampsus') reconstruction for the Ambon SS from Deviant Art, and below that his reconstruction for Bruce Champagne's "Eel-like whale" Sea Serpent type 2b. Jay Cooney guesses that both of them could be related to Both Gambo and the Hagen carcass, and the back fin on the upper reconstruction is not shown on the witness' sketch for the Ambon SS.
The wikipedia page on dorudon says they went extinct 33.9 million years ago, during the Eocene.
ReplyDeleteAnd Wikipedia also states that Lingulate Brachiopods have existed for 600 Million years. And your point is...?
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachiopod
I think his point is that there are 33.9 million years left without any sign (=carcass, bones) of Durodon while his descendents have evolved and filled the ecosystem he uses. From a point of possiblities I don't would bet on him. But anyway the image matches most parts of the description.
ReplyDeleteYes of course you are correct but actually the fact is that the mere idea that something is supposed to be extinct is of no practical value in determining if something actually is extinct or not: it is only an assumption and it is actually is beside the point. Ivan Sanderson suggested that Dorudons might not be extinct and might have survived to the present in the book Follow The Whale. That might be only an opinion also but the fact is that the suggestion has been made before. And of course we are talking in terms of possibly evolved or genetically altered descendants whenever we speak of such survivals.
DeleteAlso correct. But even if we add Durodon (or any other prehistoric sea animal whose picture matches the description) as another possibility there's no solution in sight. We simply haven't enough facts just a whole bunch of speculations.
DeleteOk, if we assume Durodon as possibility some questions arise for me. Durodon had rostral nostrils afaik. What to make of the blowhole and the nostrils of the Hagan carcass? Wouldn't trained scientists have recognized if they've seen an (evolved) Durodon?
No one is saying we have arrived at any final conclusions, we are trying to feel our way towards getting a proper assessment of this carcass in question. Obviously, the description does not correspond to any real situation for a live animal, some postmortem changes have led the witnesses to making some outlandish claims (such as saying both nostrils and a blowhole were present.)
DeleteIf we do have a creature that has both external rear limbs and a whale-like tail, it is something extraordinary. That could also be a mistaken observation or a bad remembrance. Right now we are going on the assumption that those observations were valid. And it may not be possible to ever come to a final conclusion on the matter. You are correct that even after we get so far all we have is speculation without any final solution in sight BUT there is just the chance that it was real and another such carcass could turn up later. Popularising this case might be the best way to get timely intervention to identify the next example of such a carcass in the case that occasion should arise.